Songs/lieder vocal music: singers and composers

[Dave2002]

In this context it might be worth mentioning that most 'pop music' consists of 'songs'.

I fear you may be right. Too many of that "genre" have hardly any words, hardly any plot or drama, and "music". Some are good or at least acceptable, but perhaps more than 90% are not. I have no idea what purpose they serve.

[Dave2002]

A friend of mine is very, very keen on Schubert Lieder, and will travel miles to hear recitals - yet she does not understand German at all. This doesn't appear to worry her, but surely she and I must be hearing quite different things. (I've mentioned this before, so apologies to those who've heard it already.) The fact that we can never really know what other people are hearing in music has always fascinated me.

This is interesting, and addresses one of the issues I'd hoped would come out. For years (very many) I have listened to songs/Lieder in languages other than English, and without much understanding of the text. Some are enjoyable merely as sounds, melodies, or for rhythmic interest, or in the case of orchestral songs, orchestral colour. Perhaps it depends on the song. Some go on and on, seemingly forever. The same tune repeated N times, with slightly different words each time. Depending on whether one likes the tune this may be pleasant or become tedious. Some have this pattern, then something changes - with the last stanza conveying very different feelings.

Where the music is matched to the text, and the text is understood by the listener this can perhaps give rise to heightened emotional feeling. OTOH, it is perfectly possible for composers to set texts in ways which seemingly ignore the words, and some appear to do this, which may lead to confusion. At times however, something more subtle might be going on, with the text declaring "happiness" for example, and the music suggesting something otherwise. If the words aren't relevant for the composer or listener, we might just as well have Vocalise, as Rachmaninov came to realise. He also rewrote some of his songs as plain instrumental pieces, which makes one wonder whether he really cared about the words at all.

[french frank]

Some go on and on, seemingly forever. The same tune repeated N times, with slightly different words each time. Depending on whether one likes the tune this may be pleasant or become tedious. [...] At times however, something more subtle might be going on, with the text declaring "happiness" for example, and the music suggesting something otherwise. If the words aren't relevant for the composer or listener, we might just as well have Vocalise, as Rachmaninov came to realise.

Do you have any examples? I know there's the Flanders and Swann Greek folk song but I think it would be cheating to count that!

[doversoul1]

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A friend of mine is very, very keen on Schubert Lieder, and will travel miles to hear recitals - yet she does not understand German at all. This doesn't appear to worry her, but surely she and I must be hearing quite different things. (I've mentioned this before, so apologies to those who've heard it already.) The fact that we can never really know what other people are hearing in music has always fascinated me.

I grew up listening to songs that weren’t in my own language. To me, the ‘sound’ of the language was and still is part of the music. I need to know what the song is about but the translation doesn’t have to be as poetic as the original. I suppose this isn’t ideal but I have, in way, developed tactics.

[Dave2002]

Do you have any examples? I know there's the Flanders and Swann Greek folk song but I think it would be cheating to count that!

I'll try and find some in the "art" style, but there are plenty of folk songs, many of which are actually quite fun to sing (hence my earlier mention of rugby songs), though singing is something which is maybe out of favour for many these days in the UK. It is, or at least was, ten years or so ago, surprising to find that if one went into a restaurant in Sweden that there might be the words - possibly also music - for songs for people having birthday parties. Even non party invitees would sometimes join in - usually the song - which I can't remember about the 50 years - going on another 50 up to 100!

Some of the more fun songs which people sing are of course somewhat rude, so I shall refrain from mentioning them here. How about "On Ilkely Moor ba't'at" as an example of s song which goes on and on ... ? Older people seem to know and like singing songs - such as the Grandfather Clock one.

Does anyone sing in pubs these days? Perhaps not, as so many pubs are closing down. I think it may still happen in Cornwall. Perhaps the karaoke nights which I see advertised in other places are still popular - I don't know - never been to one.

Folk songs may also differ in structure from art songs, as many have several stanzas, with a chorus refrain at the end of each verse. I'm not sure if there are many art songs with that structure.

I'll find more.

[Richard Tarleton]

I grew up listening to songs that weren’t in my own language. To me, the ‘sound’ of the language was and still is part of the music. I need to know what the song is about but the translation doesn’t have to be as poetic as the original. I suppose this isn’t ideal but I have, in way, developed tactics.

My experience too, dover. Mary's setting the bar pretty high - even in a foreign language I know reasonably well (Spanish, French up to a point), I struggle to follow the words of songs or libretti without the help of a printed text.

[Mary Chambers]

My experience too, dover. Mary's setting the bar pretty high - even in a foreign language I know reasonably well (Spanish, French up to a point), I struggle to follow the words of songs or libretti without the help of a printed text.

Even in English, if the words are unfamiliar, a printed text is often necessary, singers' diction being what it often unfortunately is. I didn't mean to imply that a printed text was never needed - just that when you have it, it is much better if you read that and not some translation, poetic or otherwise. It's virtually impossible to translate poetry well, because as as been suggested the sounds of each word (as well as the nuances, word order etc.) are part of the poem, and therefore of the song.

[gradus]

I am in the school of listeners that prefer to hear the original language, struggle with my imperfect understanding and resort to translation occasionally. Oddly perhaps I find this suffices me even though the composer has carefully and precisely chosen the lyrics that he wishes to set and approximation of meaning is absent from the creative process; somehow music bridges the gap.
My German is shaky to put it mildly but I feel that I understand (for example) Schumann's settings of Heine and Eichendorff as though I were fluent in the original language. I have no explanation for this but I think it is because Schumann's music engages my emotions powerfully and I feel no need for further explanation.