Horn-playing and deafness

[verismissimo]

My daughter who teaches the deaf has sent me an article which tells us, among other things, that it's horn-players who suffer most amongst musicians with progressive deafness. Is this true? It sounds quite likely, but why not trombone-players or percussionists?

[MrGongGong]

My daughter who teaches the deaf has sent me an article which tells us, among other things, that it's horn-players who suffer most amongst musicians with progressive deafness. Is this true? It sounds quite likely, but why not trombone-players or percussionists?

I'm not sure about that at all
Surely , in the days before screens etc
its the folk who sit in front of the Brass in Orchestras that have the most problems ?
but I would be interested in reading it
any chance of a link ?

[Hornspieler]

My daughter who teaches the deaf has sent me an article which tells us, among other things, that it's horn-players who suffer most amongst musicians with progressive deafness. Is this true? It sounds quite likely, but why not trombone-players or percussionists?

I would think that it is more likely that trumpet players' aural senses would be more affected because the trumpet requires more pressure within the head, forcing the air into a mouthpiece with a shallow cup and narrow throat, than a horn mouthpiece with a deeper funnel-shaped throat.

As it happens, my hearing has been partially compromised (no wisecracks thank you) caused by spending years in front of the percussion department, where the constant beating on a suspended cymbal sets up overtones which can actually cause a physical pain at the time and has a long term effect over the (y)ears.

It simply means that I need to have the sound turned up higher that my wife can stand it, so my solution is to have cordless headphones for TV and I can adjust the incoming volume to suit my needs (or listen on my BC2 speakers in my study.)

Percussionists are probably born tone deaf, which might explain why they elect to play non-tuneable instruments. (The Roll and Batter Department as Charles Groves used to call them.)

HS

[johnb]

Percussionists are probably born tone deaf, which might explain why they elect to play non-tuneable instruments. (The Roll and Batter Department as Charles Groves used to call them.)
HS

Reminds me of the joke "What's the definition of a drummer?" ......

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"What's the definition of a drummer?" ......

Someone who doesn't need a conductor?

[MrGongGong]

Someone who doesn't need a conductor?

Someone who follows musicians around ?

[verismissimo]

I'm not sure about that at all
... but I would be interested in reading it
any chance of a link ?

Here it is: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...orchestra.html

[MrGongGong]

Here it is: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...orchestra.html

Thanks

I'm a bit puzzled by this though ?

It is thought that the shape of the instrument, which can direct the sound towards the player's ears

I guess if you have a very strange shaped head and massive ears it's possible
but ? (i'm going to have to get my horn out ............)
Surely the shape of the horn directs the sound AWAY from you and behind you ?
(or to the side ?)

and

French horns are also often used to play loud fanfares while in classical orchestras horn players are seated side by side in the midst of the brass section.

side by side ..... yes

Its a shame the actual study is a dead link though , and I'm interested in what it really says

[johnb]

Someone who follows musicians around ?

Yep - Someone who hangs about with musicians.

[verismissimo]

... Surely the shape of the horn directs the sound AWAY from you and behind you ?
(or to the side ?)...

side by side ..... yes

That must be the problem. Not me, but you next to me.

[amateur51]

In his autobiography 'Flute' Richard Adeney writes rather movingly about his growing realisation that his hearing and thus his tuning is going, after years of sitting behind the orchestral brass and percussion

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flute-Richard-Adeney/dp/1906385203/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1381136731&sr=1

[Hornspieler]

In his autobiography 'Flute' Richard Adeney writes rather movingly about his growing realisation that his hearing and thus his tuning is going, after years of sitting behind the orchestral brass and percussion

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flute-Richar...381136731&sr=1

Wouldn't he have been sitting in front of them?

HS

[amateur51]

Wouldn't he have been sitting in front of them?

HS

I was wondering when someone would spot that, Corporal Jones

[MrGongGong]

That must be the problem. Not me, but you next to me.

Like this ?



nope ....... not sure what they mean ?
Nige and chums seem not to be playing into each others ears at all ......

I wonder what the actual research says ?

[Simon B]

Try this for the full text of the referenced research (online view of fulltext, also PDF download option, note licence terms)

http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/15459624.2013.818227

Not got time to read it properly a.t.m. but looks robust enough on a first scan.

Couple of things about the physics occur w.r.t. the discussion above about what might be problematic about the horn (assuming the "self" noise dose is a/the problem rather than players being in the firing line of other instruments):

Trumpets and trombones may not be as much of a problem as they might seem on first inspection - for their players at any rate, providing they don't play into their stands. Most obviously, the bells point directly away from the player. Then, both instruments act as pretty good collimating lenses - a very large proportion of the energy is radiated out in a narrow beam straight along the axis of the bell. This is apparent to an audience, trumpets/trombones are very directional even listened to from a long way off. A small change in the direction the player points the bell in makes a big difference to what and how much of it you hear. Sitting directly in front of either is not a good place to be however...

Meanwhile, and whether this perception is correct I won't speculate about on this thread for obvious reasons, it certainly seems from the outside that the horn section is immersed in a bath of their own sound unlike the trumpets/trombones who deliver most of their energy out into the space in front of them.

Given the inverse square law that will roughly govern the energy at a given distance from the main radiating point of the instrument, it won't take much for the lower peak power capability of a horn (by 6-8 dB or whatever it is) to be cancelled out by its different directionality properties and the proximity of the bell to the ears of the player or his/her neighbours. Also, low-medium severity industrial hearing damage tends to result from prolonged exposure to high-ish doses rather than brief periods of extreme intensity. Taken together, these might partly explain why trumpets/trombones fare better. Millions of bars rest...

The most disturbing experiences I've had were being at the back of violin sections in front of both the main and extra brass in rehearsals of Belshazzar's Feast and Mahler 8 in spaces only just big enough to hold all the performers. I can't imagine how anyone's hearing could survive doing that on a regular basis without ear defenders...