20 influential works?

[Dave2002]

Which kind of destroys the idea that these are works which " shaped the history "



http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/wha...-gruppen-73901

Thanks for the link to the Southbank concert. Perhaps sadly I won't be able to go that day.

I found this comment

Gruppen is "a landmark in 20th-century music . . . probably the first work of the post-war generation of composers in which technique and imagination combine on the highest level to produce an undisputable masterpiece" (Smalley 1967, 794).

My bold font.

OK - so that's one composer's opinion, but is it that obvious? I have at least now rectified my more or less complete ignorance of the piece by listening, but it doesn't come out and hit me with its "undisputable" qualities. I'm not anti Stockhausen, and like some of his work, but what is it that makes some people thing this is a clear masterpiece?

I will listen again. At first listening I found Kurtag's Grabstein Für Stephan (Op. 15c) and the Suite with which Gruppen is coupled on Abbado's Berlin PO CD, slightly more appealing and easier. Of course easier doesn't necessarily equate with "better", but surely music has to be accessible enough that people other than the composer can at least start to appreciate it.

I will try again with Gruppen later.

What other (if any) works by Stockhausen would board members recommend?

[Quarky]

Agree there should have been something by Arnie - I would have chosen a piano piece.

Hear and Now is doing something of a Stockhausen season at the moment. We had Kontakte recently, and Gesang der Jünglinge will be broadcast in October.

My feel for Stockhausen is that he is an extensive composer rather than an intensive composer as e.g. Schoenberg, and that many of his compositions may be cited as typical Stockhausen - don't know whether experts would agree.

There is a podcast available for Gruppen from H&N 50:
Karlheinz Stockhausen's Gruppen
Sun, 15 Jan 12

Duration:
14 mins
Finnish conductor and music director of Ensemble InterContemporain Susanna Malkki pays tribute to Stockhausen's 1950s masterpiece Gruppen for 3 orchestras, and highlights some of the challenges to conductors in performing it; commentator Paul Griffiths places the work in the context of Stockhausen's early output, and explains how the shape of a mountain view in Switzerland dictated the work's tempo patterns.

Otherwise dave2002, Ignorance is bliss.

[Petrushka]

Thanks for the link to the Southbank concert. Perhaps sadly I won't be able to go that day.

I found this comment My bold font.

OK - so that's one composer's opinion, but is it that obvious? I have at least now rectified my more or less complete ignorance of the piece by listening, but it doesn't come out and hit me with its "undisputable" qualities. I'm not anti Stockhausen, and like some of his work, but what is it that makes some people thing this is a clear masterpiece?

I will listen again. At first listening I found Kurtag's Grabstein Für Stephan (Op. 15c) and the Suite with which Gruppen is coupled on Abbado's Berlin PO CD, slightly more appealing and easier. Of course easier doesn't necessarily equate with "better", but surely music has to be accessible enough that people other than the composer can at least start to appreciate it.

I will try again with Gruppen later.

What other (if any) works by Stockhausen would board members recommend?

Mr Morrison's list has clearly worked as intended!

Lazy journalism it may be but it's provoked a discussion and discovery of new music by at least one reader!

[Ferretfancy]

It did occur to me that maybe this was written by one or two 20 year old somethings who did the leg work, then RM simply signed the final copy. However, I know little about how the papers work with this sort of thing, so this is pure speculation on my part. Would I have done much differently if I'd been given the same brief? Possibly not.

I would at least have expected to argue the toss about Pierrot Lunaire before publication.

Dave

I knew Richard Morrison many years ago when he was music director of a small local drama group who often presented musicals and did them very entertainingly. He was a skilled arranger who could also encourage amateur singers to do better than they thought possible. I think it very unlikely that he could ever just sit back and accept the cheques, as you seem to think, he is far too meticulous for that.

[Sir Velo]

Dave

I knew Richard Morrison many years ago when he was music director of a small local drama group who often presented musicals and did them very entertainingly. He was a skilled arranger who could also encourage amateur singers to do better than they thought possible. I think it very unlikely that he could ever just sit back and accept the cheques, as you seem to think, he is far too meticulous for that.

How then do you explain the omission of the following in light of the comment "The 20 Works that have shaped Classical Music" (sic)?

Debussy Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un faune;
Schoenberg Funf Orchesterstucke Op.16; Pierrot Lunaire; Waltz from Funf Klavierstucke Op.23;
Boulez Le marteau sans maitre;
Messiaen Turangalila;
Ligeti Atmospheres;
Berio Sinfonia etc.

Hard to see what great influence was exerted by the Britten, Verdi and Mendelssohn compositions (masterpieces though they are).

Ridiculous though these lists are, IWHT that Morrison and his cohorts could have done a great deal better with their 20 than the list cited above.

[MrGongGong]

How then do you explain the omission of the following in light of the comment "The 20 Works that have shaped Classical Music" (sic)?

Debussy Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un faune;
Schoenberg Funf Orchesterstucke Op.16; Pierrot Lunaire; Waltz from Funf Klavierstucke Op.23;
Boulez Le marteau sans maitre;
Messiaen Turangalila;
Ligeti Atmospheres; etc.

Hard to see what great influence was exerted by the Britten, Verdi and Mendelssohn compositions (masterpieces though they are).

Ridiculous though these lists are, IWHT that Morrison and his cohorts could have done a great deal better with their 20 than the list cited above.

[Dave2002]

Dave

I knew Richard Morrison many years ago when he was music director of a small local drama group who often presented musicals and did them very entertainingly. He was a skilled arranger who could also encourage amateur singers to do better than they thought possible. I think it very unlikely that he could ever just sit back and accept the cheques, as you seem to think, he is far too meticulous for that.

Ferret. I am very glad to hear that. If you read what I wrote I didn't assert that he'd done that, but merely mentioned its possibility.

[Ferretfancy]

Ferret. I am very glad to hear that. If you read what I wrote I didn't assert that he'd done that, but merely mentioned its possibility.

That's fine Dave, you are probably right about the possibility, journalism can corrupt!

[amateur51]

Mr Morrison's list has clearly worked as intended!

Lazy journalism it may be but it's provoked a discussion and discovery of new music by at least one reader!

Plenty of tickets left at all prices in most areas - worth a punt if you're in London on Sunday 06 October & have a pair of open ears

http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/wha...-gruppen-73901 - programme

https://secure.southbankcentre.co.uk...tn=&z=2964&ip= seats available

[MrGongGong]

Definitely worth attending
it's a piece that doesn't work well as a recording IMV
and good to see they are playing it twice (as happened at the Proms a few years ago)



(Sadly i'm going to have to mend the roof of the allotment shed instead )

[Dave2002]

Plenty of tickets left at all prices in most areas - worth a punt if you're in London on Sunday 06 October & have a pair of open ears

http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/wha...-gruppen-73901 - programme

https://secure.southbankcentre.co.uk...tn=&z=2964&ip= seats available

If our current plans change, which I hope won't happen, then I'd be very inclined to take the afternoon off and get tickets for that concert.

Maybe I'll hear Gruppen next time it comes round.

[Quarky]

Which kind of destroys the idea that these are works which " shaped the history "



http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/wha...-gruppen-73901

If using Radio 3 resources is not too infra-dig for board member(s), there will be complete performances of Gruppen and Gesang der Jünglinge on H&N 19th October.

Otherwise board member(s) may be more comfortable aligned with twit Richard Morrisson.

[MrGongGong]

Some of you might be interested in this

http://londonsinfonietta.wordpress.com/2013/09/13/listening-club-september-edition/?utm_source=&utm_medium=post&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=

[Quarky]

Yes.

Another fragment I found interesting was a very Jazzy drum solo about 2/3 way through. But obviously a mistake to assume that Jazz influenced (infected?) his entire compositional process (as with some others).