Shostakovich 15

[Nick Armstrong]

And one from me - and another to Cali for starting it.

I was in the RFH for the first UK performance in '72, with DSCH in the Royal Box.

[Petrushka]

What an unforgettable moment that must have been! As mentioned upthread I listened to the concert via Radio 3 and it was my first exposure to Shostakovich.

I do wish that someone, Gerard McBurney for example, would undertake a thematic analysis of the 15th. It is stuffed full of quotes, more, I think, than is generally acknowledged. I hear a Mahler 2 quote and there is what I feel to be one from Beethoven's Egmont overture near the close. Some of it may be coincidental but it all lends credence to the view that, as ER says above and I pointed out further upthread, that the 15th is basically autobiographical. The final ping is death itself but not just any death, it's his own.

[ahinton]

The 15th sounds for so many reasons as though destined to be DDS's final symphonic utterance (which of course it is) but, for all its autobiographical content, was it really so intended? It was followed by his last two completed two quartets, several vocal works and the viola sonata, but we know that he'd started work on a 16th quartet before his death, so who knows whether he might have begun to conceive a 16th symphony had he survived just a little longer?...

[Roehre]

The 15th sounds for so many reasons as though destined to be DDS's final symphonic utterance (which of course it is) but, for all its autobiographical content, was it really so intended? It was followed by his last two completed two quartets, several vocal works and the viola sonata, but we know that he'd started work on a 16th quartet before his death, so who knows whether he might have begun to conceive a 16th symphony had he survived just a little longer?...

He also seems to have started work on a 16th symphony (and rumours have it DSCH even managed to sketch 2 mvts)

[Nick Armstrong]

The ending of the 15th is one of to most moving in all music...

Yes....

....the last chord sounds and life is snuffed out.

...but I'm not sure the phrase 'snuffed out' is the one I would use. Had it been a dark, 'clod of earth on the coffin' last chord, yes - but that chime isn't like that. It seems like a final epiphany, to me, fleeting and final, but positive... like a last smile, that can make all the difference to the rest of the lives of those around.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

...but I'm not sure the phrase 'snuffed out' is the one I would use. Had it been a dark, 'clod of earth on the coffin' last chord, yes - but that chime isn't like that. It seems like a final epiphany, to me, fleeting and final, but positive... like a last smile, that can make all the difference to the rest of the lives of those around.

Yes, this is how I hear it, too.

[Richard Barrett]

Some of it may be coincidental but it all lends credence to the view that, as ER says above and I pointed out further upthread, that the 15th is basically autobiographical.

Which makes me wonder why one might think that the presence in a composition of quotes from other music makes it "autobiographical". (To take an extreme example, Berio's Sinfonia is clearly not intended to come across as autobiographical, despite probably containing more quotations than Shostakovich's 15th symphony.)

[Petrushka]

Which makes me wonder why one might think that the presence in a composition of quotes from other music makes it "autobiographical". (To take an extreme example, Berio's Sinfonia is clearly not intended to come across as autobiographical, despite probably containing more quotations than Shostakovich's 15th symphony.)

Gerard McBurney has pointed out that all of the other 14 symphonies are quoted. Taken together with the Rossini/Wagner quotes I see the 15th as a birth to death piece, basically autobiographical in intent.

By the way, no one has answered my query regarding Chekov's Black Monk. What relevance does this have for the 15th or is it a red herring?

[ahinton]

Which makes me wonder why one might think that the presence in a composition of quotes from other music makes it "autobiographical". (To take an extreme example, Berio's Sinfonia is clearly not intended to come across as autobiographical, despite probably containing more quotations than Shostakovich's 15th symphony.)

Is it autobiographical? Who can say with any certainty? It might be, but there's no sure way of proving that and the fact of his quoting all of his earlier symphonies as well as other composer's works is of itself proof of nothing beyond the fact that this is what he wanted to do in that symphony. I take your point about Berio, but I don't recall (not that I've listened to it in quite some whole) that it has the number of self-quotations that Shostakovich's 15th symphony has. As I said though - that doesn't prove anything.

By the way, I knew that he'd started work on a 16th quartet but was unaware that he'd begun to sketch out a 16th symphony...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

By the way, I knew that he'd started work on a 16th quartet but was unaware that he'd begun to sketch out a 16th symphony...

I remember this being mentioned in the BBC TV documentary that was broadcast shortly after his death. In the remaining years of the '70s, I heard rumours that there was enough material to "do a Cooke" on at least one of the Movements, but I've heard nothing about it since.

[BBMmk2]

Beefy mentioned Maxim's Collins Classic account and very good it is too!

[Richard Barrett]

Gerard McBurney has pointed out that all of the other 14 symphonies are quoted.

He has, but I feel that might be a little fanciful. Nobody seems to be able to point out where all these quotes actually are, to my knowledge. I suppose one thing I'm trying to say is that I'm suspicious of the application of the word "autobiographical" to music. In a sense all composition is autobiographical. In another sense, since music isn't a language in terms of its elements having precise meanings, no composition without a text could be autobiographical. The fact is that many people have claimed to know what this or that Shostakovich piece is "about", but they often disagree diametrically with one another so that the truth (if that's a word that can usefully be applied to music) could be "none of the above", or "all of the above". This is what personally I find one of the most fascinating things about his music - that it confronts head-on the contradictoriness of musical "expression" and turns this from something to avoid into something powerful and, well, meaningful.

[Petrushka]

He has, but I feel that might be a little fanciful. Nobody seems to be able to point out where all these quotes actually are, to my knowledge. I suppose one thing I'm trying to say is that I'm suspicious of the application of the word "autobiographical" to music. In a sense all composition is autobiographical. In another sense, since music isn't a language in terms of its elements having precise meanings, no composition without a text could be autobiographical. The fact is that many people have claimed to know what this or that Shostakovich piece is "about", but they often disagree diametrically with one another so that the truth (if that's a word that can usefully be applied to music) could be "none of the above", or "all of the above". This is what personally I find one of the most fascinating things about his music - that it confronts head-on the contradictoriness of musical "expression" and turns this from something to avoid into something powerful and, well, meaningful.

Thanks for the thoughtful post much of which I can find to agree with. In the use of the blatantly obvious quotes such as the Rossini William Tell and those from Wagner's Ring and Tristan Shostakovich must have been telling us something. There has to be a meaning to them otherwise why use them? There is a cryptic message here and we just can't find the key to it. I stick by my feeling that the 15th is a birth to death piece and that the birth and death in question is that of the composer himself. In this sense it is, for want of a better word, 'autobiographical'.

Other than that, the mystery continues.

[Richard Tarleton]

Other than that, the mystery continues.

both. Fascinating indeed. And after 40 years. No wonder cleverer people than me were so perplexed after the first performance

[ahinton]

He has, but I feel that might be a little fanciful. Nobody seems to be able to point out where all these quotes actually are, to my knowledge. I suppose one thing I'm trying to say is that I'm suspicious of the application of the word "autobiographical" to music. In a sense all composition is autobiographical. In another sense, since music isn't a language in terms of its elements having precise meanings, no composition without a text could be autobiographical. The fact is that many people have claimed to know what this or that Shostakovich piece is "about", but they often disagree diametrically with one another so that the truth (if that's a word that can usefully be applied to music) could be "none of the above", or "all of the above". This is what personally I find one of the most fascinating things about his music - that it confronts head-on the contradictoriness of musical "expression" and turns this from something to avoid into something powerful and, well, meaningful.

Many thanks for this - all very much to the point. I would be surprised if someone as well versed in Shostakovich as Gerard McBurney would claim that Shostakovich quoted from all of his first 14 symphonies in the 15th if he couldn't back it up but, like you, I've never actually read the evidence for this, so perhaps some of us might want to go on a "hunt the quote" to see what can be found; some are blatantly obvious, others would obviously be much less so.