Why doesn't Europe get Elgar ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Interesting research, Pabs - many thanks

Seconded

(I greatly appreciated the closing sentence, too.)

[amateur51]

Seconded

(I greatly appreciated the closing sentence, too.)

Has anyone read Prof.Pinker's tome on this?

The Better Angels of Our Nature: A History of Violence and Humanity by Steven Pinker

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence/dp/0141034645/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380115880&sr=1-1&keywords=Pinker+violence

It sounds fascinating and gets some good reviews (and some stinkers, inevitably) but 1,056 pages?!?

[amateur51]

A brief flick through all ten pages of Presto Classical's listings for Elgar cello concerto shows that most of the contemporary young cellists from all over the world (and several less well-known cellists) have recorded the piece and fairly recently too.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=Elgar+cello+concerto

A Martian viewing this would probably gain the impression that it is a much-loved work by a much-loved composer - is it tho a special case?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A Martian viewing this would probably gain the impression that it is a much-loved work by a much-loved composer - is it tho a special case?

The cello concerto probably is a special case. It could reasonably be argued that this is the finest cello concerto to date.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The cello concerto probably is a special case. It could reasonably be argued that this is the finest cello concerto to date.

Indeed - a similar reasonable argument could be made for the Violin Concerto, but it has far more "rivals".

[amateur51]

The cello concerto probably is a special case. It could reasonably be argued that this is the finest cello concerto to date.

So the evidence for this neglect lies where exactly?

The symphonies? Gerontius? The other orchestral music? The other choral pieces and oratorios? But are these that well-known on home territory?

[Richard Barrett]

The Better Angels of Our Nature: A History of Violence and Humanity[/I] by Steven Pinker

I can't find it now but I posted on this book round here previously, to the effect that he is very selective about the facts he uses to support his assertions - for example, confining his analysis to post-1945 wars among the democracies of the rich world, as opposed to those conducted by those same democracies in the Third World, and in particular Vietnam, ignoring the violence of assassinations, subversions, invasions, sanctions, drone attacks and so on carried out by the US in that period, not to mention its aggressive and imperialistic use of commerce, and generally rewriting history from a US-patriotic point of view. Pinker is a right-wing ideologue whose work should not be taken at face value.

[amateur51]

I can't find it now but I posted on this book round here previously, to the effect that he is very selective about the facts he uses to support his assertions - for example, confining his analysis to post-1945 wars among the democracies of the rich world, as opposed to those conducted by those same democracies in the Third World, and in particular Vietnam, ignoring the violence of assassinations, subversions, invasions, sanctions, drone attacks and so on carried out by the US in that period, not to mention its aggressive and imperialistic use of commerce, and generally rewriting history from a US-patriotic point of view. Pinker is a right-wing ideologue whose work should not be taken at face value.

I'm glad I asked - thanks for this

[teamsaint]

I think (this might be to do with the childhood trauma of having a bonkers piano teacher who was in love with Elgar, was the president of the local branch of the Elgar society and believed that he spoke to her from beyond the grave ) that some of the Elgar enthusiasts don't do themselves too many favours by emphasising the "Englishness" thing, more specifically the fantasy (?) of a "Great England" centred around the whole Malvern Hills with Elgar strolling up in Edwardian costume etc etc
The parts (Not sure whether they are really to do with Elgar or adopted ?) of the music which has become part of a narrative that is more than a little "little englander" ? (Pomp & Circumstance and so on) as well the "tragic" Cello concerto which is forever part of the story of Jacqueline du Pre (not that there is anything wrong with that in itself).......

Elgar wrote some really great music IMV as well as some pieces (a bit like the Grateful Dead ? ) which in their time were wonderful but don't "travel very well".

posts like this are why I prefer playing on here to doing work.

never got the hang of the Grateful Dead, perhaps need to give them a go under more "relaxed" conditions.

The story of a piece of music is always changing. Our memories are not perfect either.

[Roehre]

I don't think Roehre's point is as simple as this, Pabs; in the 1960s there was a revival of interest in two composers whose work had been neglected in the years since their deaths - Mahler and Elgar. ("Neglected", rather than "never performed" - both had occasional performances and recordings that attracted people who were already attracted to their Music.) The "Mahler revival" was world-wide (even France wasn't immune) whereas Elgar's Music largely remained a British phenomenon. This comes back to the OP - why should that be so? Why don't Elgar's works attract, for example, the same enthusiasm amongst, say, Viennese CD buyers that Mahler's works achieve from CD buyers in London? What is it that the Symphony recordings - by Boult, Barbirolli, Solti, Slatkin, Davis, t'other Davis, Menuhin, Handley, Haitink, Sinopoli and the composer himself (there's no shortage of recordings) - "lack" for Austrian, German, Finnish, Japanese, Italian, Korean, Spanish, American, Czech, Norwegian etc etc etc etc that they find in recordings of Mahler's symphonies? It's must be more than squabbles about parental automobilia.


Again, I think there's more involved than Roehre's opinions: he doesn't stand by the Channel Tunnel preventing exports of Elgar's Music (and if he had such arbitrary influence, the Beethoven Ninth wouldn't get performed in its entirity!) - there evidently is something in Mahler's Music for listeners in Austria, Germany, Sweden, Argentina, Latvia, Denmark, et al that just isn't there (is "lacking") for them in Elgar's. As someone who regards a lot of that Music as astonishing, I don't know what this "missing link" is, but it does seem as if most listeners in Paris regard listening to the Second Symphony as a similar experience to that of many of Elgar's admirers when listening to Falstaff.

Many thanks FHG, much appreciated

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

never got the hang of the Grateful Dead, perhaps need to give them a go under more "relaxed" conditions.

It might help to put you in a more sympathetic frame of mind to know that the Simpson Symphony cycle on Hyperion couldn't've been made without money from Deadhead Jerry Garcia's charitable Foundation.

[teamsaint]

It might help to put you in a more sympathetic frame of mind to know that the Simpson Symphony cycle on Hyperion couldn't've been made without money from Deadhead Jerry Garcia's charitable Foundation.

good to know, and certainly my favourite piece of info of the day !!

I am sympathetic to the GD, just never got round to getting it.....one day....

[cocolinmichela]

The cello concerto probably is a special case. It could reasonably be argued that this is the finest cello concerto to date.

Oh, yes!!

[aeolium]

Something that makes me thing that the non-reception of Elgar in continental Europe is more to do with preconceptions and extra-musical associations than something qualitatively in the music is that his music has been taken up, played and often championed by European (and Russian) conductors: Hans Richter, Monteux, Silvestri, Haitink, Barenboim, Sinopoli, Solti, Oramo, Ashkenazy, Petrenko etc. And these conductors - at least, those whose interpretations I've heard - tend to emphasise the more European influences in Elgar's music. Here is Oramo, trying to answer the very question posed in the OP back in 2007:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2007/may/25/classicalmusicandopera1

Oramo argues that a tradition of British conducting of Elgar - one which departs from Elgar's own interpretations - has worked to isolate Elgar as an insular figure, reinforced by traditions associated with works like the Pomp and Circumstance marches. Some may not be convinced by this, but is it likely that such a composer would find such support among these very fine European conductors if the work itself was insular?

[Bryn]

It might help to put you in a more sympathetic frame of mind to know that the Simpson Symphony cycle on Hyperion couldn't've been made without money from Deadhead Jerry Garcia's charitable Foundation.

Likewise many of the recordings of symphonies and other works by Havergal Brian (on Marco Polo and other labels).