Why doesn't Europe get Elgar ?

[ahinton]

Why? ... just as the music of Charles Ives is largely ignored in this country; with the exception of the occasional outing during the Prom season.

When did you last see anything by Ives, Harris, Elliott Carter or any other American composer of the last century, programmed by any of the orchestras outside of the BBC?

Is Vaughan Williams any more favoured than Elgar across the channel? Or Bax? Or Tippett?

I take your point, but when you think of the sheer number of composers from all over the world that don't get performed by non-BBC British orchestras, the list will seem endless (though no list ever can be that) but, since we're discussing an English composer here, when did you last hear a non-BBC British orchestra give a live performance of a symphony by Bush, Rubbra, Berkeley, Jones, Searle, Simpson, Arnold, Hoddinott or even Bax? And, since you mention some American composers, when did you last see anything by the American symphonists Harris, Diamond, Piston, Schuman, Mennin or even the greatest of them all, Sessions, played anywhere by an American orchestra?

The question of music "not travelling well" is an important consideration here but not only can this vary from generation to generation and place to place, the above is ample evidence that considerable swathes of English and American orchestral music by past composers fare far from well in their own country, at leat in terms of in terms of concert hall representation. I imagine that the symphonies of Vaughan Williams, Tippett, Brian and those English composers mentioned above fare little better than those of Elgar outside England, so I think that the notion of mainland Europe "not getting" Elgar is somewhat misleading in the particularity of its focus on Elgar.

At the present time, we are enjoying a plethora of Scandinavian music in this country.
Hardly surprising. We are also enjoying a plethora of Vanskas, Jukka-Pekkas, Jansens et al.
So naturally they bring their own country's music with them. How many British conductors are working in Europe?

That's a good question but I don't think that it could realistically address this issue as a whole. When have American conductors working in England brought much American music with them? Did Boulez, when working in England, bring much French music with him with which English concert-goers were not already familiar?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Did Boulez, when working in England, bring much French music with him with which English concert-goers were not already familiar?

Boulez has his select programmes when working with Symphony Orchestras in the 1970s - Berlioz, Debussy, Ravel, Messaien, Stravinsky, 2nd Viennese, Bartok, Varese and new works from the "Darmstadt-influenced School". Dutillieux and Magnard would never have appeared. Jan-Pascal Tortelier, on the other hand, did programme (and quite regularly) much French Music that is often overlooked here. ( - And, indeed, there!)

[ahinton]

Boulez has his select programmes when working with Symphony Orchestras in the 1970s - Berlioz, Debussy, Ravel, Messiaen, Stravinsky, 2nd Viennese, Bartok, Varese and new works from the "Darmstadt-influenced School". Dutillieux and Magnard would never have appeared. Jan-Pascal Tortelier, on the other hand, did programme (and quite regularly) much French Music that is often overlooked here. ( - And, indeed, there!)

Indeed - in fact I think that Boulez has only ever conducted one Dutilleux work anywhere in his life! Perhaps the least familiar major French work that he's taken outside France with him is Roussel's Third Symphony, so due credit to him for that! I'm pretty sure that Anthony Payne knows him but I still somehow doubt that a conversation has ever taken place between them - or indeed between anyone else and Boulez, for that matter - about the possibility of Maître Pierre conducting Elgar's Third Symphony!...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

...that some of the Elgar enthusiasts don't do themselves too many favours by emphasising the "Englishness" thing, more specifically the fantasy (?) of a "Great England" centred around the whole Malvern Hills with Elgar strolling up in Edwardian costume etc etc

As others have said, there is a great deal of music that tends to stick close its country of origin. The 50 CD Liege SO box set contains a wealth of wonderful Belgian and French music most of us have never heard in Britain.

[cocolinmichela]

I quite agree with you (I am half Italian half German, by the way!), it's not just hard to find recordings of Elgar's works in Germany and Italy (or any other European countries) but they don't get very often played out there. If they are, it is indeed the "usual suspects" like you said. An Italian friend of mine asked me for a CD of Elgar's works conducted by Sinopoli. I had to order it from Amazon UK!!

[Roehre]

As others have said, there is a great deal of music that tends to stick close its country of origin. The 50 CD Liege SO box set contains a wealth of wonderful Belgian and French music most of us have never heard in Britain.

Or try the sets issued by the Deutscher Musikrat in Germany or Donemus/NM in the Netherlands.

[ahinton]

I quite agree with you (I am half Italian half German, by the way!), it's not just hard to find recordings of Elgar's works in Germany and Italy (or any other European countries) but they don't get very often played out there. If they are, it is indeed the "usual suspects" like you said. An Italian friend of mine asked me for a CD of Elgar's works conducted by Sinopoli. I had to order it from Amazon UK!!

I wonder if that might in part be down to the differences in importance of orchestral tradition in Italy and Britain; one could go a long time waiting to hear live performances of the orchestral music of Martucci, Casella, Pizzetti, Malipiero, Alfano or Petrassi in Britain but how easy would it be to do that in Italy? Even Busoni's orchestral music doesn't get too many outings in Britain.

[pastoralguy]

Even Busoni's orchestral music doesn't get too many outings in Britain.

So often the case, Ahinton. I bought a cd of Busoni's violin sonatas recently and I've listened to them many times on repeat but I'm damned if I can whistle any of the work back. Is it because I'm trying to acquaint myself with these works at age 50 as opposed to, say, the Kreutzer sonata which I first heard when I was 15? Is my memory not as good as it used to be or is it dimply that the Busoni sonatas are not as good as the Beethoven's?

[MrGongGong]

So often the case, Ahinton. I bought a cd of Busoni's violin sonatas recently and I've listened to them many times on repeat but I'm damned if I can whistle any of the work back. Is it because I'm trying to acquaint myself with these works at age 50 as opposed to, say, the Kreutzer sonata which I first heard when I was 15? Is my memory not as good as it used to be or is it dimply that the Busoni sonatas are not as good as the Beethoven's?

Surely you aren't suggesting that a measure of quality is the "Old Grey" test ?

[pastoralguy]

Surely you aren't suggesting that a measure of quality is the "Old Grey" test ?

OMG!! . Now that's a thought that's going to fester!

[ahinton]

So often the case, Ahinton. I bought a cd of Busoni's violin sonatas recently and I've listened to them many times on repeat but I'm damned if I can whistle any of the work back. Is it because I'm trying to acquaint myself with these works at age 50 as opposed to, say, the Kreutzer sonata which I first heard when I was 15? Is my memory not as good as it used to be or is it dimply that the Busoni sonatas are not as good as the Beethoven's?

The first is quite an early piece - I recall that the only time I heard in live was with Ricci and Ogdon and I was expecting the second sonata which is, as you know, in the same key. Busoni considered the second as his first mature work which, considering how much he'd written by then, is quite an admission! I think that the second's a marvellous work and, altough I've not heard it for years, I can still remember parts of it well!

[pastoralguy]

The first is quite an early piece - I recall that the only time I heard in live was with Ricci and Ogdon and I was expecting the second sonata which is, as you know, in the same key. Busoni considered the second as his first mature work which, considering how much he'd written by then, is quite an admission! I think that the second's a marvellous work and, altough I've not heard it for years, I can still remember parts of it well!

I'm having a rare day alone with my hi-fi so it's going on next.

[Pabmusic]

A while on the Elgar Society site yielded these concerts in the next 9 months. They are all with non-British orchestras. As far as I can tell they are professional orchestras (most of them play on CDs I own) with a couple of youth orchestras thrown in. Conductors include Ashkenazy, Barenboim, Oramo, Sakari, Wigglesworth, Andrew Davis, Simon Rattle:

Germany: Enigma x 4; Gerontius x 3; Cello x 3; Sym 2; Violin Concerto (Ehnes) & Salut d’Amour

Paris: Enigma; P & C 1-4; Sym 2

Finland: Intro & Allegro; Enigma; Cello Conc

Norway: King Olaf; Cello Conc x 2; Sym 1

Vienna Cello: Conc (Truls Mork)

Iceland: Cello Conc

Switzerland: Serenade for Strings

Ukraine: Froissart; Violin Conc; Enigma

Sweden: Cockaigne; Organ Sonata No, 1

Brussells: Cello Conc x 2

Amsterdam: Serenade x 2

I am not trying to make a point that we're all too pessimistic - I happen to agree with the main thrust of the post - but I have been so used to working in the criminal justice field and being told continually that we live in an increasingly violent society when all the evidence is that it's becoming less violent.

[ahinton]

A while on the Elgar Society site yielded these concerts in the next 9 months. They are all with non-British orchestras. As far as I can tell they are professional orchestras (most of them play on CDs I own) with a couple of youth orchestras thrown in. Conductors include Ashkenazy, Barenboim, Oramo, Sakari, Wigglesworth, Andrew Davis, Simon Rattle:

Germany: Enigma x 4; Gerontius x 3; Cello x 3; Sym 2; Violin Concerto (Ehnes) & Salut d’Amour

Paris: Enigma; P & C 1-4; Sym 2

Finland: Intro & Allegro; Enigma; Cello Conc

Norway: King Olaf; Cello Conc x 2; Sym 1

Vienna Cello: Conc (Truls Mork)

Iceland: Cello Conc

Switzerland: Serenade for Strings

Ukraine: Froissart; Violin Conc; Enigma

Sweden: Cockaigne; Organ Sonata No, 1

Brussells: Cello Conc x 2

Amsterdam: Serenade x 2

I am not trying to make a point that we're all too pessimistic - I happen to agree with the main thrust of the post - but I have been so used to working in the criminal justice field and being told continually that we live in an increasingly violent society when all the evidence is that it's becoming less violent.

I'd thought that, these days, we're constantly being reassured that we now live in an incresingly less violent society (even if only in an attempt to justify cuts in the police service) but never mind that; this is very interesting indeed, especially the Second Symphony in Paris! I wonder how that will go down! Who's conducting which orchestra?

[amateur51]

A while on the Elgar Society site yielded these concerts in the next 9 months. They are all with non-British orchestras. As far as I can tell they are professional orchestras (most of them play on CDs I own) with a couple of youth orchestras thrown in. Conductors include Ashkenazy, Barenboim, Oramo, Sakari, Wigglesworth, Andrew Davis, Simon Rattle:

Germany: Enigma x 4; Gerontius x 3; Cello x 3; Sym 2; Violin Concerto (Ehnes) & Salut d’Amour

Paris: Enigma; P & C 1-4; Sym 2

Finland: Intro & Allegro; Enigma; Cello Conc

Norway: King Olaf; Cello Conc x 2; Sym 1

Vienna Cello: Conc (Truls Mork)

Iceland: Cello Conc

Switzerland: Serenade for Strings

Ukraine: Froissart; Violin Conc; Enigma

Sweden: Cockaigne; Organ Sonata No, 1

Brussells: Cello Conc x 2

Amsterdam: Serenade x 2

I am not trying to make a point that we're all too pessimistic - I happen to agree with the main thrust of the post - but I have been so used to working in the criminal justice field and being told continually that we live in an increasingly violent society when all the evidence is that it's becoming less violent.

Interesting research, Pabs - many thanks