Why doesn't Europe get Elgar ?

[Barbirollians]

I am prompted to ask this question by the press release put out by DG concerning Anne Sophie Mutter's new recording of the Dvorak Violin Concerto announcing that

"Here, she records Dvořák’s Violin Concerto – the last of the great Romantic violin concertos not yet in her discography"

As much as I love the Dvorak concerto - it is not within a country mile of Elgar's Concerto - which Menuhin for one classed with the Beethoven and Brahms.

ASM has never recorded it - I don't know whether she has ever played it though in the dim and distant past I recall her being complimentary about it an interview in Gramophone. Only a non-UK press release could suggest that the Elgar was not a great romantic violin concerto .

It seems that Elgar is considered a minor composer in Europe - why is this I wonder ?

[slarty]

Elgar's music, (apart from the "usual suspects" of Enigma, The Cello Co. and the P&P Marches) is rarely found on concert schedules around Germany and Italy, (two countries that have been my home for the last 25 years). One has only to look around the classical record shops here and the Elgar section is always a little thin. I remember the Saturn Record store in Köln when it opened in the late 70's as being literally the biggest record store in the world. The classical section had three floors and London's HMV shop would have fitted on one of them. Even then the Elgar section was not very big.
It was better in the past when conductors of Barbirolli's repute would include the symphonies in his concert programmes, thus giving the works a much needed boost, but all of the other great advocates then(Boult,ect) did not conduct much in europe or, did not bring Elgar with them when they did. I remember more recently Colin Davis in Munich ,whose concerts were normally always full, playing Elgar 1 to a half empty house. Today only Rattle in Berlin plays the occasional Elgar.
As for the Violin Concerto, whether it is as good, or better, than other concerti is not the point, many of the great european soloists of the past did not play it, or record it, so it has not become part of the mainstream concert repertoire over here.
I am afraid that Elgar's music is considered by many to be too "english", whatever that means, and becomes almost unsaleable in concert programmes.
Put a large Elgar work in any well known european orchestra's programme these days and you will be lucky to sell 60% of the house.
The German music scene does not see Elgar as a great composer, they class him with V-W and Holst as specialized 20th century English composers as we do with Pfitzner and Hindemith in that similar category of secondary 20th century German composers.
Delius fought all his life to avoid the "stigma" of being considered an english composer, his music is even more rarely played here.
It is very difficult for us to believe that in other countries Elgar is not revered or even considered to be in the top rank of composers.
Whether the younger British conductors these days who champion Elgar are allowed to programme his works when abroad is down to the concert agencies. They,IMO are the main reason for the apathy towards Elgar and his contemporaries in Europe today.

[verismissimo]

That covers the ground, slarty. The situation was nowhere near as dire half a century ago. Then (leaving aside Anglophones) we had as advocates Haitink, Monteux, Jochum, Solti, Fournier, Tortelier, Heinrich Schiff, Kyung Wha Chung...

Jurowski has been tiptoeing into this territory recently. I once heard Gergiev do Nimrod (magically) as an encore with his St Petersburg orchestra. Did he ever go further?

[Dave2002]

slarty - re msg 2

So what do they listen to in "Europe" - Germany, France, Italy etc.? Do they absorb works by composers we in the UK have never heard of, or is such listening, like here - a specialist sport, where composers filling a similar niche to Birtwistle and Turnage get occasional outings and mention, and most concert halls are filled by listeners to a very restricted subset of German and Russian music from earlier centuries?

I'd bet against Grisey and Nono being popular even in France or Italy.

[MrGongGong]

It seems that Elgar is considered a minor composer in Europe - why is this I wonder ?

I guess that if you like to classify composers in the major/minor way then Elgar IS a relatively "minor" composer.

[Demetrius]

Wikipedia shows the difference in viewpoints clearly. The first paragraph states the "major works" of a composer and is often the only part people actually read

in English:
"Among his best-known compositions are orchestral works including the Enigma Variations, the Pomp and Circumstance Marches, concertos for violin and cello, and two symphonies. He also composed choral works, including The Dream of Gerontius, chamber music and songs."

in German:
"Sein bekanntestes Werk ist der „Pomp & Circumstance March No. 1“, dessen Trioteil die Hymne Land of Hope and Glory entlehnt ist, die unter anderem jedes Jahr bei der Last Night of the Proms gespielt wird."

A more extensive review follows, but that is read by those with a specialised interest. If known at all, Elgar is seen as the composer of Land of hope and Glory and nothing else. The (missing) knowledge and attitudes of concert goers influence programmers just as much as they influence the audiences in return.

[Roehre]

..It seems that Elgar is considered a minor composer in Europe - why is this I wonder ?

Because he is, perhaps ?

contrary to what many think, (classical) music is not as universal as it at first sight (/hearing) seems.

Elgar, VaughanWilliams, Sibelius are three name which spring to mind immediately as composers which are revered on these isles and the English speaking countries (or in case of Sibelius: Scandinavia), but seem less exportable outside these
countries. Every country has its composers which are considered to be great, but are not (yet) universally regarded as such.
Good German/Austrian examples: Bruckner, Reger, Hindemith, Hartmann.
And what about composers like Simpson or PMD, IMO great composers, but even within these isles hardly heard?

I sincerely belief that without knowing the British countryside, it is more difficult to appreciate many of the British composers, Elgar (most likely) and Vaughan Williams (most certainly) included.
One has got a (phantasy-) image of the Alps (Bruckner, Strauss, Mahler [the latter now a fashion product I'm afraid]), but what about the British Isles -apart from London and Scotland?

It is extremely difficult to pinpoint (if at all), but knowing/understanding where composers live(d), does affect their appreciation. Or: Perhaps some music is more universal than other?

[MrGongGong]

contrary to what many think, (classical) music is not as universal as it at first sight (/hearing) seems.

Oh I don't know
The first sentence in the new National Curriculum for Music in England says that
"Music is a universal language"

So it must be true

(or maybe the next bit is "in which case as everyone speaks it , there's no need to have it in schools anymore" )

[Demetrius]

regionalism yes, but I doubt that it is because the classic friendly audience in Europe doesn't get Elgar or Vaughan Williams. Generally, they just have not heard their music. Now if they were thrown at them with some force and rejected, that would be something different. The Sea Symphony was well received in May in my local hall and I doubt that people would dislike Elgars Symphonies if say Berlin or the Concertgebouw would play them more frequently. There is also a phantasy image of the Brittish Countryside very much in place - starting with Dover and right up to the Hebrides. It is no more realistic than the alps one, I suppose. But the picture we have about Russia is by no means more defined and Shostakovich is a favourite in the area. He is a great composer to be sure, but he was made popular by continued exposure. Try that with Elgar and you will see his popularity rise.

[Roehre]

....He is a great composer to be sure, but he was made popular by continued exposure. Try that with Elgar and you will see his popularity rise.

It worked for Mahler and Shostakovich at least, and what about the Berg violin concerto?

(and vice versa, Saint Saens, Franck, to some extent Mendelssohn, are fewer times played than until quite recently, and losing popularity)

[JimD]

I sincerely belief that without knowing the British countryside, it is more difficult to appreciate many of the British composers

I'm very sceptical of this type of claimed association. I would be intrigued to see a double-blind 'scientific' test, if such a thing were practicable, though I doubt that it is.

[MrGongGong]

I'm very sceptical of this type of claimed association. I would be intrigued to see a double-blind 'scientific' test, if such a thing were practicable, though I doubt that it is.

[Petrushka]

In the case of Elgar, the situation is even more odd because his music quite clearly comes from, and is strongly influenced by, the great Austro-German tradition particularly Brahms, Schumann and Wagner. Elgar is, to my ears, firmly in that tradition just as much as Mahler and Richard Strauss are and notions of the English countryside are, in the main, a complete red herring. Quite why German audiences today do not take to Elgar is something of a mystery. Before the First World War his music was hailed by Richard Strauss and played frequently but it was, I think, the Great War that did Elgar's European reputation much damage and while that may be a century ago, it has never recovered.

Had Elgar written more than two symphonies we might be looking at a different situation and one similar to that of Mahler perhaps. His time will come.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It didn't help that Karajan referred to Elgar as "second rate Brahms". That's a bit like calling Puccini "second rate Verdi". Just as I prefer Puccini to Verdi, I prefer Elgar to Brahms. Indeed I rate him above all others.

That's why I am collecting the Elgar Society Complete Edition, with 25 volumes now issued out of 43.

[BBMmk2]

I was just thinking of the same, Petrushka. His ~Dream of Gerontius was very well received in Germany at the time of it's premier. I suppose with the second world war put paid to that. Taste changed after the war as well and I suppose again, it could be all cyclic?