Why doesn't Europe get Elgar ?

[pastoralguy]

It didn't help that Karajan referred to Elgar as "second rate Brahms". That's a bit like calling Puccini "second rate Verdi". Just as I prefer Puccini to Verdi, I prefer Elgar to Brahms. Indeed I rate him above all others.

That's why I am collecting the Elgar Society Complete Edition, with 25 volumes now issued out of 43.

I know I've written this before but since it's relevant to the topic I'll repeat it. I got the opportunity to ask Sir Simon Rattle if he intended to 'do' Elgar with the Berlin Philharmonic. His considered reply was just, as Eine Alpine says, that German audiences had been conditioned to regard Elgar as a poor relation to Brahms. He said that, apart from the 'cello concerto and the 'Enigma' Variations, there were very few performances of his work in Germany. In answer to my question, he said "Yes, he'd like to perform Elgar but was 'advised' why bother? - do Brahms instead". A real sham, IMHO.

I'd love to hear Anne-Sophie Mutter play the Elgar but I doubt it'll happen anytime soon.

[salymap]

Boult,Sargent, probably Barbirolli, visited Elgar, discussed his music with him,certainly performed a certain amount abroad when they could.

Once they were gone that immediate link was lost. It's up to younger conductors to programme what they can and just maybe we will lose that rather patronising 'cow looking over a gate/ Malvern Hills' attitude that followed RVW and Elgar through their lives.

[HighlandDougie]

It's up to younger conductors to programme what they can

And some of them do just that. Sakari Oramo (OK, Finnish, not German so in this context probably an Honorary Brit) is a fine champion of Elgar's music - the recent issue of the Second Symphony with his-then Stockholm orchestra is evidence of that. Vasily Petrenko is an equally impressive conductor of Elgar But Salymap hits the nail on the head. If conductors don't take up composers, their music will become heard less and less in live performance as those orchestral managers who programme concerts seem unlikely to 'force' composers on unwilling conductors.

[Roehre]

...... Elgar is, to my ears, firmly in that tradition just as much as Mahler and Richard Strauss are and notions of the English countryside are, in the main, a complete red herring.

Then call it "Englishness", but I am sure it's not a red herring

Quite why German audiences today do not take to Elgar is something of a mystery. Before the First World War his music was hailed by Richard Strauss and played frequently but it was, I think, the Great War that did Elgar's European reputation much damage and while that may be a century ago, it has never recovered.

why is he hardly played outside the anglophone world? is the main question I think.
He is not well appreciated elsewhere on the continent outside Germany either.
And: why don't we hear many of the excellent American symphonies on these isles (or on the continent, for that matter)?

Had Elgar written more than two symphonies we might be looking at a different situation and one similar to that of Mahler perhaps. His time will come.

Not sure - as here we've got the comparison with RVW's nine.

[Oliver]

Interestingly, in the US it's much the same, despite Previn and Slatkin. But US audiences (I am told) appreciate VW. Do they discern whispers of Copland there?

In general terms, audiences like what they know. If Elgar isn't heard, they won't like it....just as Mahler wasn't heard and therefore remained unappreciated until the late 50s here in the UK.
By the way, Haitink's Elgar symphonies are superb; how were they received in Holland? assuming he conducted them there, of course.

[Pabmusic]

Boult,Sargent, probably Barbirolli, visited Elgar, discussed his music with him,certainly performed a certain amount abroad when they could.

Once they were gone that immediate link was lost. It's up to younger conductors to programme what they can and just maybe we will lose that rather patronising 'cow looking over a gate/ Malvern Hills' attitude that followed RVW and Elgar through their lives.

We didn't exactly help ourselves by belittling Elgar in the 50s and 60s, when he was - to a not inconsiderable extent - a composer non grata at the music colleges. His star was at its lowest in Britain about the year of his centenary, and it's really since Ken Russell's film (1962), Michael Kennedy's biography (1968?) and Solti's recording of the first symphony (1971?) that his reputation has grown generally.

As for his reputation in Germany, it was quite good before WW1 but was all but destroyed by that conflict, with no known performances, and his music was not played in Germany at all during the Nazi period. That leaves the 1920s, when Germany was recovering from war and trying to exist during hyper-inflation, and when musical tastes were very different from before the war. Elgar's stock was low in Britain in the 1920s, and plumbed the depths after WW2. It isn't very surprising, then, that Germany failed to treat Elgar as a worthy composer. It's only in the last 40 years that the British (or most of them) have consistently acknowledged him as worthy.

[EdgeleyRob]

Because he is, perhaps ?

contrary to what many think, (classical) music is not as universal as it at first sight (/hearing) seems.

Elgar, VaughanWilliams, Sibelius are three name which spring to mind immediately as composers which are revered on these isles and the English speaking countries (or in case of Sibelius: Scandinavia), but seem less exportable outside these
countries. Every country has its composers which are considered to be great, but are not (yet) universally regarded as such.
Good German/Austrian examples: Bruckner, Reger, Hindemith, Hartmann.
And what about composers like Simpson or PMD, IMO great composers, but even within these isles hardly heard?

I sincerely belief that without knowing the British countryside, it is more difficult to appreciate many of the British composers, Elgar (most likely) and Vaughan Williams (most certainly) included.One has got a (phantasy-) image of the Alps (Bruckner, Strauss, Mahler [the latter now a fashion product I'm afraid]), but what about the British Isles -apart from London and Scotland?

It is extremely difficult to pinpoint (if at all), but knowing/understanding where composers live(d), does affect their appreciation. Or: Perhaps some music is more universal than other?

I'm hopeless at putting this sort of stuff into words but here goes.

My reaction to music can seem at times to be a bit odd or extreme,even to me.
I like the countryside but I'm not a countryside person,I love visits but wouldn't want to live out in the sticks,much happier being surrounded by concrete and metal.
The music of Elgar and RVW is everywhere and evokes much more than beautiful English rolling landscapes,and to my mind, they are truly universal composers.
I can sense this music just as much when walking through the centre of Manchester or when stuck in traffic on the motorway,as I can when I have been strolling around Herefordshire or simply sitting outside a country pub on a summer's day.
It evokes,to me at least,green hills,tower blocks,trees,roads,sun,rain,absolutely everything.
I can't for the life of me get my head around why anyone,even in the 20's and 30's,would label RVW's music sounding like a cow looking over a gate.

Strange post I know but there it is.

[Pabmusic]

I'm hopeless at putting this sort of stuff into words but here goes.

My reaction to music can seem at times to be a bit odd or extreme,even to me.
I like the countryside but I'm not a countryside person,I love visits but wouldn't want to live out in the sticks,much happier being surrounded by concrete and metal.
The music of Elgar and RVW is everywhere and evokes much more than beautiful English rolling landscapes,and to my mind, they are truly universal composers.
I can sense this music just as much when walking through the centre of Manchester or when stuck in traffic on the motorway,as I can when I have been strolling around Herefordshire or simply sitting outside a country pub on a summer's day.
It evokes,to me at least,green hills,tower blocks,trees,roads,sun,rain,absolutely everything.
I can't for the life of me get my head around why anyone,even in the 20's and 30's,would label RVW's music sounding like a cow looking over a gate.

Strange post I know but there it is.

I think it's a sincere and eloquent post, ER.

[EdgeleyRob]

I think it's a sincere and eloquent post, ER.

That's very kind of you to say so,thanks Pabs.
If Europe doesn't get Elgar it's their loss.

[Dave2002]

A comment from a friend and colleague the other day, which may/may not have some basis in fact, regarding the music of Shostakovich. The remark was that in a piece (presumably the 8th string quartet) where the sounds are supposed to represent gunfire, shells etc. they may simply reflect a "night before" effect, as DS had, allegedly a few bad nights with alcoholic beverages, and the quartet simply reflects this. We can't always discern what extra musical events/images etc. a composer might have had in mind when writing music. Sometimes they may let us in on the secret, if there is one, and sometimes not. Sometimes they may even play us along. In RVWs case it seems clear from his writings and comments that often "the public" and critics got it wrong. I'm not sure whether he could be said to have lived in a rural environment - much of his life was in and around London, though his life near Dorking could have been much more rural in his time than it is now.

Images may be conjured up by music, but they don't have to be universal. In the lead in to the last movement of Brahms' first symphony, I nearly always imaging a sailing ship in a harbour with the sun shining. Don't ask me why!

[Petrushka]

Then call it "Englishness", but I am sure it's not a red herring

why is he hardly played outside the anglophone world? is the main question I think.
He is not well appreciated elsewhere on the continent outside Germany either.
And: why don't we hear many of the excellent American symphonies on these isles (or on the continent, for that matter)?

Not sure - as here we've got the comparison with RVW's nine.

I think that the situation regarding RVW is a bit more complex than that of Elgar. RVW's symphonies spring from the English folksong tradition rather than the Austro-German one and while that's an over-simplification of their content it places him on a par with other composers (eg Bartok) who were following a similar path at the same time. To that extent RVW's music is much more 'English' than Elgar. Ultimately, these labels are meaningless, to me anyway.

As ER says, it's Europe's loss.

[Barbirollians]

On You Tube there is an extract from digital concert hall of Shaham playing the Elgar Concerto with BPO/Zinman - in front of a packed house !

I suppose it is true that the work - unlike 40/50/60 years ago is not in the repertoire of many of the violinists most commonly before the public .

Shaham,Znaider, Zehetmair and Hahn play it - but not Vengerov, ASM, Faust ? Batiashvili ? etc

Perlman,Zukerman and KWC of course had it in their repertoire. Kremer won a prize with it !

[Pabmusic]

On You Tube there is an extract from digital concert hall of Shaham playing the Elgar Concerto with BPO/Zinman - in front of a packed house !

There's also this:

http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2491/runnicles-grosz-quandt-strauss-elgar

and this:

http://www.mikhailovsky.ru/en/afisha/performances/detail/417450/

[EdgeleyRob]

I think that the situation regarding RVW is a bit more complex than that of Elgar. RVW's symphonies spring from the English folksong tradition rather than the Austro-German one and while that's an over-simplification of their content it places him on a par with other composers (eg Bartok) who were following a similar path at the same time. To that extent RVW's music is much more 'English' than Elgar. Ultimately, these labels are meaningless, to me anyway.

As ER says, it's Europe's loss.

Same here

[EdgeleyRob]

There's also this:

http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2491/runnicles-grosz-quandt-strauss-elgar

and this:

http://www.mikhailovsky.ru/en/afisha...detail/417450/

And even a Gerontius.

http://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2501/barenboim-larsson-storey-youn-rundfunkchor-berlin-elgar