The symphony, and how it changed our world

[Guest]

A new series at The Guardian could provide excellent food for thought for this board's members!

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/sep/10/50-greatest-symphonies-tom-service-series

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I shall be very interested to discover which 50 symphonies are on the list.

[Beef Oven!]

I shall be very interested to discover which 50 symphonies are on the list.

Nor will I.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

These were my top 100 a couple of years ago:

Bantock: Hebridean
Beethoven: 3, 6, 7 & 9
Berlioz: Fantastic; Funeral & Harold in Italy
Brahms: 3 & 4
Britten: Spring Symphony
Bruckner: 4, 5, 7 & 8
Dvorak: 3, 6, 7, 8 & 9
Elgar: 1, 2 & 3
Gunning: Yorkshire Glory
Haydn: 44, 49, 83, 88, 92, 94, 96, 97, 102, 103 & 104
Hovhaness: 2. 11 & 50
Hely-Hutchison: Carol Symphony
Lilburn: 3
Lloyd, G: 8
Mahler: 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 & 9
Mendelssohn, 2, 4 & 5
Mozart: 9, 25, 29, 34, 36, 38, 39, 40 & 41
Nielsen: 1, 4 & 5
Part: 3
Prokofiev: 1, 3, 5
Parry: 3 & 5
Rachmaninov: 2 & 3
Rubbra: 5
Schubert: 4, 8 & 9
Schumann: 4
Shostakovitch 5, 7, 10 & 15
Sibelius: 1, 2, 3, 5 & 6
Strauss: Eine Alpensinfonie
Stravinsky: Symphony of Psalms
Sullivan: Irish
Tchaikovsky: 1, 2, 4, 5 & 6
Vaughan Williams: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7
Walton: 1

Now it's just a matter of whittling the list down to half.

[EdgeleyRob]

These were my top 100 a couple of years ago:

Bantock: Hebridean
Beethoven: 3, 6, 7 & 9
Berlioz: Fantastic; Funeral & Harold in Italy
Brahms: 3 & 4
Britten: Spring Symphony
Bruckner: 4, 5, 7 & 8
Dvorak: 3, 6, 7, 8 & 9
Elgar: 1, 2 & 3
Gunning: Yorkshire Glory
Haydn: 44, 49, 83, 88, 92, 94, 96, 97, 102, 103 & 104
Hovhaness: 2. 11 & 50
Hely-Hutchison: Carol Symphony
Lilburn: 3
Lloyd, G: 8
Mahler: 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 & 9
Mendelssohn, 2, 4 & 5
Mozart: 9, 25, 29, 34, 36, 38, 39, 40 & 41
Nielsen: 1, 4 & 5
Part: 3
Prokofiev: 1, 3, 5
Parry: 3 & 5
Rachmaninov: 2 & 3
Rubbra: 5
Schubert: 4, 8 & 9
Schumann: 4
Shostakovitch 5, 7, 10 & 15
Sibelius: 1, 2, 3, 5 & 6
Strauss: Eine Alpensinfonie
Stravinsky: Symphony of Psalms
Sullivan: Irish
Tchaikovsky: 1, 2, 4, 5 & 6
Vaughan Williams: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7
Walton: 1

Now it's just a matter of whittling the list down to half.

Easy EA,ditch the Beethoven,Berlioz,Bruckner,Dvorak,Haydn,Mahler,Moz art,Nielsen,Part,Schumann,Sibelius,Strauss and Stravinsky.
Insert Arnold 9,Alwyn 3 and RVW 8 & 9.

[teamsaint]

Nor will I.

that makes three of us.

[Beef Oven!]

that makes three of us.

[Roehre]

Ok, four then

[DublinJimbo]

These were my top 100 a couple of years ago:

Bantock: Hebridean
Elgar: 3
Gunning: Yorkshire Glory
Hely-Hutchison: Carol Symphony
Lilburn: 3
Lloyd, G: 8
Parry: 3 & 5
Rubbra: 5
Sullivan: Irish
Vaughan Williams: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7
Walton: 1

Surely these are included with tongue firmly in cheek? 7 RVW's among the greatest 50? And so many British composers?

Apart from that, the problem for me is the fact that Tom Service is listing them. Tom Service?

[Beef Oven!]

Surely these are included with tongue firmly in cheek? 7 RVW's among the greatest 50? And so many British composers?

Apart from that, the problem for me is the fact that Tom Service is listing them. Tom Service?

When I saw The Hebridean, I knew he was joking.

[Ruhevoll]

Bumping this thread up, as Tom Service has posted his article on Beethoven's Fifth. A lot more detailed and analysis than I was expecting I'd be very interested to learn what forum members make of it.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/sep/16/symphony-guide-beethoven-fifth-tom-service

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Bumping this thread up, as Tom Service has posted his article on Beethoven's Fifth. A lot more detailed and analysis than I was expecting I'd be very interested to learn what forum members make of it.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tom...th-tom-service

This really gets my goat. An excellent article (the Musical analysis is remarkably well conveyed - especially considering Music examples aren't used) with plenty of links to other fascinating discussions: it just shows how fine a Musical intellect Service has and how well he can communicate his thoughts.

So why the blazes he is encouraged to (and/or agrees to) act like a prat in the Proms TV broadcasts and in his other work for the Beeb?!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

So why the blazes he is encouraged to (and/or agrees to) act like a prat in the Proms TV broadcasts and in his other work for the Beeb?!

It's very sad that this does indeed appear to be the case.

Perhaps Radio 3 will limit the current symphonic output to Sinfonia Antartica and the Lord of the Rings Symphony.

[ahinton]

This really gets my goat. An excellent article (the Musical analysis is remarkably well conveyed - especially considering Music examples aren't used) with plenty of links to other fascinating discussions: it just shows how fine a Musical intellect Service has and how well he can communicate his thoughts.

So why the blazes he is encouraged to (and/or agrees to) act like a prat in the Proms TV broadcasts and in his other work for the Beeb?!

It's cetainly an example of the better side of Service provision and, even if it does little more than scratch the surface, that's understandable given the amount of space allotted to him.

In writing that "The scherzo is one of Beethoven's most obvious borrowings from Mozart: he quotes and subtly transforms the opening of the finale of Mozart's 40th Symphony to create his own theme", he ignored the fact that Beethoven had already done just that seom years earlier in the opening of his first published piano sonata (Op. 2 No. 1 in F minor) - indeed, the connection between this and the Mozart is even closer.

He also write of the link between the 3rd and 4th movement that "The transition from the scherzo to the finale is one of the dramatic masterstrokes of orchestral music. From an entropic mist of desolate memories of the scherzo's opening theme, underscored by the timpani's ominous heartbeat, the violins' arpeggios climb until they reach a tremolo, a crescendo and a blaze of unadulterated C major glory". That timpani heartbeat just has to be C, doesn't it? - as reworked towards the close of Brahms's Schicksalslied, hinted at in the finale of Mahler 2 and perhaps most notably of all kept alive in the 20th century at the close of Shostakovich 4, although in this case it's reversed in the sense that it's a blaze of ultimnately empty C major glory imploding to leave only a restrained and exhausted C minor "entropic mist of desolate memories" - one of the most magical symphonic moments of all, not least because of what comes across as an alomst directionlessness and uncertainty that leads up to it - or rather makes a point of NOT" leading" to it...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Ix
In writing that "The scherzo is one of Beethoven's most obvious borrowings from Mozart: he quotes and subtly transforms the opening of the finale of Mozart's 40th Symphony to create his own theme", he ignored the fact that Beethoven had already done just that seom years earlier in the opening of his first published piano sonata (Op. 2 No. 1 in F minor) - indeed, the connection between this and the Mozart is even closer.

The figure used was the "Mannheim Rocket" a common feature in the Classical era.