Schumann Liederkreis op 39

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  • aeolium
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 3992

    Schumann Liederkreis op 39

    I had originally wanted to raise this as a belated Summer BaL but summer seems to have gone and the real BaL is nearly upon us. I could also have raised it under Po3 with reference to the Wigmore recital on Monday by Anne Schwanewilms and Geoffrey Vignoles. But I'd rather simply have a discussion about the work - one of my favourite song cycles - and its performance styles and memorable recordings.

    I think the Eichendorff Liederkreis settings seem to have been unjustly overshadowed by Dichterliebe as the Liederkreis songs are more unaffectedly romantic - the most romantic songs he had written, according to Schumann - as well as more tightly linked tonally. The song cycle starts in F sharp minor and concludes in F sharp major; many of the songs are in either A/A minor or the dominant E/e minor, A major being typically used as a key expressing love, while E major often seems to me to be used in expression of an unearthly quality. The texts of the songs have the full panoply of German romanticism (rather than the ironically detached romanticism of Heine's poems) with distant lands, Waldeinsamkeit, hunting songs, the Lorelei, country weddings, moonlight and ghostly figures.

    As to its interpreters, I prefer a tenor voice to either soprano or baritone. Ian Partridge is as ever unfailingly musical and lyrical in this work, excellently accompanied by his sister Jennifer. Among sopranos I am especially impressed by Margaret Price and Geoffrey Parsons, IIRC still on Hyperion. I don't have any recordings with baritone on CD. Interestingly there is a recording with Peter Pears and Murray Perahia, possibly from the late 1970s, but I think this cycle above all others perhaps needs to be sung by someone young. Anne Schwanewilms in her Wigmore recital had a very beautiful voice but perhaps seduced by the temptation to show off its beauty seemed to draw out phrases, and some songs like the opening In der Fremde were terribly slow.
    Last edited by aeolium; 11-09-13, 15:52.
  • gurnemanz
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 7357

    #2
    Don't start me off .... I think I got to know this marvellous cycle for the first time with Peter Schreier and Norman Shetler on LP and I now have it on CD. It was recorded in 1972 in the Lukaskirche, Dresden, the same location for his Orfeo disc with Andras Schiff 30 years later, aged 67, the distillation of a lifetime's experience of the work, which would be my tenor choice.
    My most recent version is on Christian Gerhaher's "Melancolie" CD recital from 2008. He calls it "the most perfect of all song cycles" and his interpretation is possibly my current favourite. I have two Fischer-Dieskaus which I would also call essential - possibly preferring the lighter-voiced 1954 with Gerald Moore but the later one with Christoph Eschenbach offers multiple insights and the fruits of long association with the work. Bryn Terfel is also very good, offering lots of subtleties and a huge range of expression, though I can nitpick on his German accent, so maybe not a first choice. I recently got the Hermann Prey EMI Icon Box which contains his 1962 version with Karl Engel which I like very much - a great voice.

    I have three versions covering the female range with a soprano (Kate Royal with Graham Johnson on the Hyperion Complete set, beautifully done) a mezzo (Janet Baker superbly in her prime with Daniel Barenboim) and a real contralto, Nathalie Stutzmann with Catherine Collard (I love her mellow tones and interpretative touches).

    You can hear both Wagner (fate motiv at the end of Zwielicht) and Chopin (Waldesgespräch) in there. I hope to keep discovering more versions of this great work (eg the ones you mention) and will go back and listen to Anne Schwanewilms which I missed on Monday.

    Comment

    • amateur51

      #3
      Originally posted by gurnemanz View Post
      Don't start me off ....
      I'm rather glad that aeolium did start you off, gurney - many thanks to both for providing ample evidence that exploring several versions of this wonderful music is worthwhile.

      Many years ago I had an LP of Souzay and Cortot in Dichterliebe and I can't remember if Liederkreis was on the other side.

      I must investigate the Gerhaher. Bryn Terfel's version is one I listen to often and his German accent sounds exactly how a Welsh singer should sound in this work

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      • aeolium
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 3992

        #4
        Thanks, gurnemanz - I was hoping to get a response from you

        I don't have the Gerhaher recording but I have heard him in a broadcast performance which was impressive. I'd be interested in hearing Prey. I saw him singing Beethoven and Schubert at the Edinburgh Festival many moons ago: a lovely voice. I have generally been put off hearing Fischer-Dieskau in this as in some other works he has seemed to me to over-emphasise consonants. And I still think a higher voice - tenor or soprano - suits the work better. It's a pity that Pears and Britten did not record it.

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        • Roehre

          #5
          Originally posted by aeolium View Post
          ..... I think the Eichendorff Liederkreis settings seem to have been unjustly overshadowed by Dichterliebe as the Liederkreis songs are more unaffectedly romantic - the most romantic songs he had written, according to Schumann - as well as more tightly linked tonally. ...... The texts of the songs have the full panoply of German romanticism (rather than the ironically detached romanticism of Heine's poems) with distant lands, Waldeinsamkeit, hunting songs, the Lorelei, country weddings, moonlight and ghostly figures.... .....
          Exactly the reason why I prefer Liederkreis to Dichterliebe.
          Also the reason why I still hardly have heard any non-German/austrian singer perform/record these IMO idiomatically/really convincingly. Pears/Britten IMO would have been a disaster as is Pears/Perahia IMO, Terfel is not bad but certainly not excellent and the same applies to Price (though very musically done!) and Baker IMO. For all his idiosyncrasies I'd go for either DFD or Prey (if it has got to be a male) and Fassbaender or Ameling (for a female singer)
          Last edited by Guest; 11-09-13, 17:18.

          Comment

          • ostuni
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 545

            #6
            aeolium's original post brings up the important topic of key relationships - which are, of course, altered if (as often) lower voices go in for some partial transposition. I'm afraid this practice rather irritates me so that, much as I admire the beauty of Gerhaher's voice, and his eloquence with the text, I can't help latching on to the inconsistencies.

            It's not just a matter of key relationships: it's the relative ranges of the songs. I've only had time to listen to the first 2 songs of op 39 this afternoon. No.1 (In der Fremde, F#mi) is fairly low in the voice for a tenor, peaking once in the middle of the song on a sustained high E (da ruhe ich auch). No. 2 (Intermezzo, rel major Ama) is that bit higher in range, opening on this same high E, and rising several times to an F#, a tone higher.

            Gerhaher sings no.1 in F#, because he can - but for a baritone, it no longer sounds relatively low. Very beautiful, certainly, but not the same effect as from a tenor. But no.2 would be uncomfortably high at pitch, so he sings it in G major, down a tone. So the keys of the first two songs are no longer related to each other - and the high notes in no.2 are exactly the same as the one in no.1.

            I think this is more than just nitpicking: if you're going to sing a series of songs that is definitely conceived as a cycle, then you ought to honour what the composer has written, rather than just go for what sounds nice for your voice.

            Comment

            • teamsaint
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 25175

              #7
              re the Lyrics. No doubt these are widely available, but in any case, this is a truly great site, for other purposes !

              I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

              I am not a number, I am a free man.

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              • Mary Chambers
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 1963

                #8
                Originally posted by Roehre View Post
                Pears/Britten IMO would have been a disaster
                Would have been? There is a recording. It was in the Britten the Performer series. It didn't sound like a disaster to me, but then I'm an admirer of both of them, especially together, and I don't know a great deal about Schumann.

                Comment

                • Roehre

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Mary Chambers View Post
                  Would have been? There is a recording. It was in the Britten the Performer series. It didn't sound like a disaster to me, but then I'm an admirer of both of them, especially together, and I don't know a great deal about Schumann.
                  Pearson's German is far from idiosyncratic/idiomatic. I have heard Britten in some Schumann -I cannot recall exactly what- as accompanist, which was IMO not accurate. At the other hand: BB's interpretation/recording of Schumann's Szenen aus Goethe's Faust is straightforwardly excellent IMO (doesn't apply to all the soloists, btw). But there he is the conductor of course.

                  Comment

                  • Mary Chambers
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 1963

                    #10
                    Perahia, of course, was not and is not an accompanist, so I would agree with you that his recordings with Pears are not very good. It was too late for comfort in Pears's career, as well (1974). The Liederkreis recording with Britten is from the late 1950s, so very different.
                    Last edited by Mary Chambers; 11-09-13, 20:27.

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                    • aeolium
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 3992

                      #11
                      ostuni msg 6 - very good point. I agree that the songs should be sung in a way that preserves the key relationships which are so important to the cycle as a whole.

                      Comment

                      • LeMartinPecheur
                        Full Member
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 4717

                        #12
                        I'm surprised by what I find I've not got.

                        The LMP shelves reveal 2 x Ian Partridge (the standard Classics for Pleasure recording already mentioned plus a BBC MM disc) and one much more left-field choice, Ruud van der Meer (bar) and Rudolf Jansen on a bargain-bin LP (apparently Dutch CBS!?) from the early 80s, c/w the Heine Liederkreis. Bought in a Basingstoke chain record shop (the chain long dead, not HMV!) for 99p IIRC.

                        What chance of finding anything so cheering in Basingstoke, or any UK town without an independent classical shop, these days? (I exclude "The Joy of Charity Shops" from this comment.)

                        So, I clearly need soprano, alto and bass versions...

                        Seriously, I need persuasion that a tenor isn't all you need, and IP will do very nicely to be going on with
                        I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!

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                        • verismissimo
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 2957

                          #13
                          Originally posted by aeolium View Post
                          ostuni msg 6 - very good point. I agree that the songs should be sung in a way that preserves the key relationships which are so important to the cycle as a whole.
                          What a delicious thread. Thanks, aeo.

                          Aside from a swag of individual songs, some of them very early recordings, I appear to have the much-loved Partridges, the currently rather unfashionable Schwarzkopf (with Parsons), and the Gerhaher/Huber which I will re-visit in the light of ostuni's comments.

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                          • aeolium
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 3992

                            #14
                            Has anyone else listened to the Schwanewilms/Vignoles performance broadcast from Wigmore Hall on Monday lunchtime? There was much to enjoy, not least Vignoles' accompaniment.

                            Comment

                            • verismissimo
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 2957

                              #15
                              Originally posted by aeolium View Post
                              Has anyone else listened to the Schwanewilms/Vignoles performance broadcast from Wigmore Hall on Monday lunchtime? There was much to enjoy, not least Vignoles' accompaniment.
                              Missed it, aeo. What were your impressions?

                              This is David Nice's review in theartsdesk: http://www.theartsdesk.com/classical...s-wigmore-hall

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