Men make Better Conductors

[Beef Oven!]

er, in the real world,(not "consultancy") if you "deliver on your targets" they give you more to do.

Even in Turkey.

I keep asking to move departments, but they won't let me cos I sell too much.

You must be doing something wrong.

[teamsaint]

You must be doing something wrong.

What I am doing wrong is not listening to enough music under good conditions.

I might go on strike.

Or do a masters on borrowed money.

Or sell trade secrets to competitors and spend the proceeds on a nice lunch.

Or become a conductor.... us blokes are great at that......and get back on topic.

[Beef Oven!]

Or sell trade secrets to competitors and spend the proceeds on a nice lunch.

Glad to see you're thinking big

[amateur51]

teamsaint, it's not how much time you spend at work that's the issue, it's what you do when you are there. If you deliver on your targets more effectively, you'll find that you don't have to be there as much

No team work for you then, Beefo?

That figures

[jean]

Lunchtime O'Boulez, writing in the current Private Eye,thinks he may have discovered the origins of Petrenko's 'unwise remarks' about women conductors:

"The critic Alex Ross has found an interview [Yuri] Temirkanov [Petrenko's teacher] gave last year to Nezavisimaya Gazeta in which he said women can't conduct because it's 'counter to nature...the essence of the conductor's profession is strength. The essence of a woman is weakness.'"

Meanwhile, a daughter has been born to the Petrenkos. I suggest her musical education be carefully monitored.

[Mary Chambers]

Lunchtime O'Boulez, writing in the current Private Eye,thinks he may have discovered the origins of Petrenko's 'unwise remarks' about women conductors:

[I]"The critic Alex Ross has found an interview [Yuri] Temirkanov [Petrenko's teacher] gave last year to Nezavisimaya Gazeta in which he said women can't conduct because it's 'counter to nature...the essence of the conductor's profession is strength. The essence of a woman is weakness.'"[/I

Meanwhile, a daughter has been born to the Petrenkos. I suggest her musical education be carefully monitored.

I didn't know Temirkanov had taught Petrenko. I was in a concert conducted by him (T.) once, and can well believe he would say something like that.

[jean]

This appears to be the blog that O'Boulez was quoting:

Recently, I came across an interview that the conductor Yuri Temirkanov—the longtime music director of the St. Petersburg Philharmonic, and, as it happens, Alsop’s predecessor at the Baltimore Symphony—gave last year to the newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta. A formidable figure in Russian music, Temirkanov served as a mentor both to Gergiev and later to Petrenko. The interviewer, the Paris-based pianist and composer Elena Gantchikova, deserves credit for grilling him. A Russian-speaking friend provided this translation:

Q.: In your opinion, could a woman conduct?
A.: In my view, no.
Q.: Why not?!
A.: I don’t know if it’s God’s will, or nature’s, that women give birth and men do not. That’s something that no one takes offense at. But if you say that a women can’t conduct, then everyone’s offended. As Marx said, in response to the question “What’s your favorite virtue in a woman?”—“Weakness.” And this is correct. The important thing is, a woman should be beautiful, likable, attractive. Musicians will look at her and be distracted from the music!
Q.: Why? There are women in the orchestra; people indifferent to a women’s charms. Besides, how many times would you be enraptured by appearances? After all, it’s something you tire of, and switch to the heart of the question. Statistically, of course, there are women conductors.
A.: Yes, they do exist.
Q.: Nevertheless, you maintain that these are less than women, or less than conductors.
A.: No, simply that in my opinion, it’s counter to nature.
Q.: And what is it in the conductor’s profession that runs counter to a woman’s nature? That’s counter to the essence of the conductor’s profession?
A.: The essence of the conductor’s profession is strength. The essence of a woman is weakness.

[MrGongGong]

It's like the 20th century never happened

As the parent of a young woman working in music it makes me furious that in the 21st century she has to put up with crap like this.

"It's counter to nature"

As if waving your arms about and being paid huge sums of money is somehow "natural"
(Yes I know there are some great conductors, some are even GIRLS .............don't tell Scotty)

[visualnickmos]

...... I suggest her musical education be carefully monitored.

Or better still, book her in for a sex change.

[mercia]

looks like the artistic director of the Southbank had something to say about this subject yesterday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-25881668

[Beef Oven!]

looks like the artistic director of the Southbank had something to say about this subject yesterday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-25881668

"Ms Kelly said deliberate decisions to promote female talent had to be taken"

This could mean that female talent is given precedence over male talent, which I believe is wrong too. Positive discrimination is invidious, and obscures the greater longer-term goal that it seeks. Surely it's about having non-discriminatory selection processes and a mature approach to talent-management? But maybe that's what she means and has merely expressed herself poorly.

[ahinton]

"Ms Kelly said deliberate decisions to promote female talent had to be taken"

This could mean that female talent is given precedence over male talent, which I believe is wrong too. Positive discrimination is invidious, and obscures the greater longer-term goal that it seeks. Surely it's about having non-discriminatory selection processes and a mature approach to talent-management? But maybe that's what she means and has merely expressed herself poorly.

Of course positive discrimination is invidious - odious, indeed - but I think that it's pretty obvious that the proportion of it as compared to the other kind in the field of Western "classical" public music making in general and orchestral conducting in particular has been and remains vanishingly small.

All the arguments that I've heard in discouragement of women conductors are specious and spurious at best and insulting and against the public interest at worst.

[Beef Oven!]

Of course positive discrimination is invidious - odious, indeed - but I think that it's pretty obvious that the proportion of it as compared to the other kind in the field of Western "classical" public music making in general and orchestral conducting in particular has been and remains vanishingly small.

All the arguments that I've heard in discouragement of women conductors are specious and spurious at best and insulting and against the public interest at worst.

I don't think that positive discrimination is odious. It is mainly well-intended, but militates against a 'felt-fair' feeling in the workforce, which creates all sorts of problems, including adversely affecting morale.

[ahinton]

I don't think that positive discrimination is odious. It is mainly well-intended, but militates against a 'felt-fair' feeling in the workforce, which creates all sorts of problems, including adversely affecting morale.

It is precisely because I likewise find it that "militates against a 'felt-fair' feeling in the workforce, which creates all sorts of problems, including adversely affecting morale" that I find it odious! The problem is that, when it's been so firmly entrenched in a particular profession for as long as this one has, dislodging it will never be easy or free of pitfalls including accusations of positive discrimination. I think that I can well imagine, for example, what Ms Maconchy would have had to say - and Ms Musgrave still would say - on the subject!

[Beef Oven!]

It is precisely because I likewise find it that "militates against a 'felt-fair' feeling in the workforce, which creates all sorts of problems, including adversely affecting morale" that I find it odious! The problem is that, when it's been so firmly entrenched in a particular profession for as long as this one has, dislodging it will never be easy or free of pitfalls including accusations of positive discrimination. I think that I can well imagine, for example, what Ms Maconchy would have had to say - and Ms Musgrave still would say - on the subject!

You've either missed the point completely about positive discrimination (being a workable possibility, but not without its downside, and hence a perfectly reasonable approach that many organisations take - saying nothing of the fact that it is a central part of current UK employment legislation) or, you are too stubborn to retract your over-enthusiastic comment.

Positive discrimination (if that's what Ms Kelly is thinking of - we don't know) could bring about the desired long term effect, at the cost of an element of short-term dissatisfaction. Maybe Ms Kelly is being more strategic than tactical, and there is nothing odious about any of it.