Wagner and Tolkien

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  • umslopogaas
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 1977

    #31
    Oliver, that still is in the introduction to the libretto that accompanies the LP set of 'Siegfried': its from the 1923 film 'Siegfried' directed by Fritz Lang.

    Re. earlier posts concerning Proust or Tolkein, I dont see why one should exclude the other, I've read both several times and thoroughly enjoyed them. I've just embarked on a third voyage through Proust, because Penguin have just brought out a new translation.

    I was an undergraduate in the late 1960s and Tolkein was certainly a cult. Interest was especially feverish at my college, because the Dean was said to be a personal friend of Tolkein: dont know why that should have heightened interest in him, but it did. That massive yellow paperback was published in 1968 and was a best seller; I've still got mine and re-read it recently.

    I did actually first read the whole thing in three days, but the circumstances were unusual. I had a summer job working on a farm in Norfolk, running a hot water sterilising tank for daffodil bulbs. They had to be cleaned of nematode infestation by the hot water treatment before the farmer could sell them to the Netherlands (I dont know why, I'm sure the Dutch have just the same nematodes as we do, but that was the requirement). The bulbs were put into steel mesh crates, stacked on a platform and lowered into the water which (I still remember this) had to be kept at exactly one hundred and eleven and a half Fahrenheit for four hours. So, every four hours you had to winch out the last batch, put them back in their sacks, stack up the next batch and lower it in. You then had nothing to do for the next three hours, except stay awake and keep an eye on the temperature. As a result, I had plenty of time to read Tolkein.

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    • Mr Pee
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 3285

      #32
      Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
      We need someone like Peter Jackson, perhaps?
      Indeed, I am sure he would make a fine job of it. Or Spielberg, for that matter. The Ring could make a stunning film if it were done in the manner of the Lord of The Rings.

      Incidentally, did anyone else read National Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings"? I did, shortly after reading LOTR, and loved it:-

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      • Ferretfancy
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 3487

        #33
        Originally posted by Mr Pee View Post
        I am sure that if Wagner were alive today he would relish the opportunity to create a film of The Ring, with all the CGI and technological wizardry available, not to mention surround sound. He would probably see it as the perfect medium. I would love to see such a thing, but I doubt it will ever happen.
        One problem is that the characters in The Ring spend a great deal of time telling each other who they are, what has happened so far, or what might be about to happen. Also the whole thing only contains one joke ( two if you count the toad in Rheingold ) This would place heavy demands on a film director. Much as I enjoy the music, there are times when it would be nice if they would get on with it!

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        • ferneyhoughgeliebte
          Gone fishin'
          • Sep 2011
          • 30163

          #34
          Originally posted by Pabmusic View Post
          Tolkien did not appreciate Wagner's treatment of the sagas - "He delighted his friends with recitations from Beowulf, the Pearl, and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, and recounted horrific episodes from the Norse Volsungasaga, with a passing jibe at Wagner whose interpretation of the myths he held in contempt".
          Tolkien's finest creative work was produced when he lectured at Leeds University: his modern English renditions of Sir Gawain & the Green Knight remain unsurpassed. After his move to Oxford, his lectures on Beowulf deserve the respect and gratitude of everyone, and The Hobbit is a terrific children's book. After that, I agree with his own assessment:

          Or "The comparison of his Ring with the Nibelungenlied and Wagner always annoyed him; he once said 'Both rings were round and there the resemblance ceased"
          ... any comparison of Tolkien's appalling prose with Wagner's work "always annoys" me, too - 'tho' I suspect for different reasons. (I'm not surprised that people want to read The Lord of the Rings in a couple of days - there's nothing to be gained from lingering on the text, and the story is a decent if derivative yarn). The films (and the 1980 radio adaption) does it more justice than did the author - and it's much, much better than The Silmarillion: there's a decent orchestral piece to be written from the first pages of which, but from page six ...

          All, of course, in my (failed-attempt-to-be-humble) opinion, of course.
          [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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          • Pabmusic
            Full Member
            • May 2011
            • 5537

            #35
            Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
            ...The films (and the 1980 radio adaption) does it more justice than did the author ...
            There was, of course, the awful 1978 adaptation of roughly one half by Ralph Barkshi, as a hybrid animation.

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            • Mary Chambers
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 1963

              #36
              I think you may be taking the comparison too seriously, ferney. It was certainly meant light-heartedly by me, anyway. On the other hand, it did enter my head!

              I much prefer Gawain in the original and have never seen Tolkien's modern English version, I don't think. Beowulf would be hard for the non-specialist to read, so is more in need of translation. I'm sure that with a bit of effort most people could manage Gawain, though I admit I haven't read it for many years.

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              • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                Gone fishin'
                • Sep 2011
                • 30163

                #37
                Originally posted by Mary Chambers View Post
                I think you may be taking the comparison too seriously, ferney. It was certainly meant light-heartedly by me, anyway. On the other hand, it did enter my head!
                Sorry, Mary - I should've attached an emoticon to my comment: I was in teasing mode, too.

                I much prefer Gawain in the original and have never seen Tolkien's modern English version, I don't think. Beowulf would be hard for the non-specialist to read, so is more in need of translation. I'm sure that with a bit of effort most people could manage Gawain, though I admit I haven't read it for many years.
                I quite agree that the original words of the Middle English poems far outstrip Modern English versions (imagine having only Neville Coghill's version of The Canterbury Tales rather than Chaucer's! ) - one of my New Year's Resolutions for 2012 was to improve my fluency in Old English in order to be able better to read Beowulf (and The Dream of the Rood etc). Things rather got in the way, and I haven't been able to spend as much time as I'd like on the project, but what progress I've made convinces me that the original is superior even to Heaney's reworking (and it was Heaney's introductory essays that made me aware of Tolkien's important work in revealing Beowulf's importance as a work of Literature (rather than merely an example of an obsolete language).
                [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                • Mary Chambers
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 1963

                  #38
                  Beowulf is harder to read than Gawain, which is only a bit harder than Chaucer, as far as I remember. Beowulf really does feel like a foreign language at first. I did these things at University, loved Middle English in particular.

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                  • BBMmk2
                    Late Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 20908

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Mary Chambers View Post
                    Beowulf is harder to read than Gawain, which is only a bit harder than Chaucer, as far as I remember. Beowulf really does feel like a foreign language at first. I did these things at University, loved Middle English in particular.
                    How do these compare with the Norse Legend?
                    Don’t cry for me
                    I go where music was born

                    J S Bach 1685-1750

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                    • jean
                      Late member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 7100

                      #40
                      Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                      ... (imagine having only Neville Coghill's version of The Canterbury Tales rather than Chaucer's! )...
                      I could never forgive him for translating Angelus ad Virginem as The Virgin's Angelus.

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                      • teamsaint
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 25210

                        #41
                        Originally posted by jean View Post
                        I could never forgive him for translating Angelus ad Virginem as The Virgin's Angelus.
                        could have come out worse.......

                        (especially with my latin skills !!)
                        I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                        I am not a number, I am a free man.

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                        • Mary Chambers
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 1963

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
                          How do these compare with the Norse Legend?
                          I don't think I'm really qualified to answer that, though I'm sure they have a lot in common. I did read some Norse literature at the time, but I can't remember much about the content now. I was always more interested in the language.

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                          • richardfinegold
                            Full Member
                            • Sep 2012
                            • 7667

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                            No sex? So how did Samwise and Rose manage to end up with 13 children?
                            No wonder The Hobbit always has such a sly grin on his face

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                            • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                              Gone fishin'
                              • Sep 2011
                              • 30163

                              #44
                              Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
                              No wonder The Hobbit always has such a sly grin on his face
                              Wotasseegotinnitspocketsesiss?
                              [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                              • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                                Gone fishin'
                                • Sep 2011
                                • 30163

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
                                How do these compare with the Norse Legend?
                                Beowulf (written around the 8th - 10th Centuries) is an Anglo-Saxon poem in Old English (although its action takes place in Scandanavia); it's later than the German/Norse Nibelungensaga (from about four hundred years earlier). Unlike the earlier Norse myths, Beowulf has a single, although now unknown, author - but it is from the same "family tree" as the Norse myths: the male hero, the fight against supernatural forces, male bonding etc But Beowulf's principal difference is that it is an early Christian text - there is a creative friction between the older "glory" = "dying in battle for your king" and an attempted allegory with the Christian soldier who fights for Christ (an idea that grew throughout the 10th Century and culminated in the First Crusade). For the most part, Beowulf is most memorable for its treatment of the supernatural events; the Christian bits seem (to me) tacked on purely for form's sake - they add nothing and jolt into the rumbling text.
                                [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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