How do you convert a Mozart sceptic?

[Simon]

... But, as there is so much crepe in the world that prevents us from enjoying life, when (as with the case in the OP) somebody requests a "nudge" towards something that might bring them immense pleasure and satisfaction, it's a privilege to be able to do so.

Indeed.

[Nick Armstrong]

Indeed.

Yes, we can all agree with Ferney there, I think!

For my money, I would nudge towards the piano concertos every time - maybe 17, with its wonderful harmonic side-slips in the first movement, or 22 or 23 perhaps.

[Richard Barrett]

the immense pleasure that can be gained from Bach, or Mozart, or some of the other true greats

"Immense pleasure" can be gained from many things in many different ways - the immense pleasure you're talking about, however, seems to be one which involves a strong element of patronising self-satisfaction, deriving partly from affecting to privileged knowledge as to who "the true greats" are. I can understand many people thinking that if this is the kind of person who listens to Mozart's music they want nothing to do with it.

[Beef Oven]

I'm with the majority on this one, as regards the basic principle. If people for whatever reason don't rate a particular piece of music, it's their affair. There seems no good reason to me for anybody else to bother overmuch, save perhaps for a gentle nudge towards a suggestion of a good listening experience or two.

We may indeed feel sad about the fact that the immense pleasure that can be gained from Bach, or Mozart, or some of the other true greats, is denied another human being, but there's probably not much that can realistically be done to change that.

Totally agree Simon. A gentle nudge and the rest can be left with the individual concerned. Hopefully they get there, but if they don't - c'est la vie.

[Simon]

"Immense pleasure" can be gained from many things in many different ways - the immense pleasure you're talking about, however, seems to be one which involves a strong element of patronising self-satisfaction, deriving partly from affecting to privileged knowledge as to who "the true greats" are. I can understand many people thinking that if this is the kind of person who listens to Mozart's music they want nothing to do with it.

Oh dear. I try to be as balanced and pleasant as possible, and still someone comes along with an attack. Is this an attempt to cause me to react, I wonder? - so that it can be twisted to look as if, now I'm back, it's me that is causing trouble? If so it will fail, as I shall reply logically and decently.

There's nothing patronising or self-satisfied about my comment whatsoever. It has surely been fairly obvious for the past century or so who "the true greats" of classical music were, and it's certainly not privileged information, but is knowledge that has been widely disseminated in schools across the world and can be found in every relevant book that one might pick up.

One could discuss the "great" status of those composers not, perhaps, so widely known generally such as maybe Schubert and Mendelssohn, whose early deaths left us, sadly, not so large a corpus but whose music deeply moves and delights so many, and of course there are the towering figures of Wagner and Verdi - but can there be a rational doubt that at least Bach, Mozart and Beethoven were "great" composers, irrespective of whether one "likes" their work or not?

Some truths are self-evident; my comment merely underlines one of them.

[David-G]

"Immense pleasure" can be gained from many things in many different ways - the immense pleasure you're talking about, however, seems to be one which involves a strong element of patronising self-satisfaction, deriving partly from affecting to privileged knowledge as to who "the true greats" are. I can understand many people thinking that if this is the kind of person who listens to Mozart's music they want nothing to do with it.

I don't understand you. Are you contending that I do not get immense pleasure from listening to Mozart?

[Richard Barrett]

I try to be as balanced and pleasant as possible

Well, either you aren't trying very hard, or your abilities in this area are severely limited. An example:

It has surely been fairly obvious for the past century or so who "the true greats" of classical music were, and it's certainly not privileged information.

It is "obvious" to some people, and not so obvious to others, but more importantly it's completely unknown to most people, let alone "self-evident".

Returning to the thread topic: regarding the "greatness" of Mozart as "self-evident" isn't going to convert anyone. Personally I think using a loaded word like "convert" is a mistake to begin with.

[Simon]

It is "obvious" to some people, and not so obvious to others, but more importantly it's completely unknown to most people, let alone "self-evident".

Oh dear. I wonder how anyone can make such a strange comment.

Can it be unclear that by stating: "it has surely been fairly obvious for the past century or so who "the true greats" of classical music were", I was intending to mean that it has been obvious to anyone who has had some knowledge of the subject.

It hardly needs to be said that those who have never heard of the composers won't find it obvious.

[amateur51]

A belated response (haven't looked at this thread for a few days, good grief ) - Liszt was more or less unique among 19th century composers in his selfless promotion of the works of other composers, as promoter, conductor and pianist. His generosity and refusal to have a bad word to say about anybody was seldom reciprocated.

I didn't know that, RT - many thanks

[amateur51]

You're probably right, Simon - and (as any English Literature teacher will concur) badgering someone else to like what you like is as sure a way of alienating them from it even further. But, as there is so much crepe in the world that prevents us from enjoying life, when (as with the case in the OP) somebody requests a "nudge" towards something that might bring them immense pleasure and satisfaction, it's a privilege to be able to do so.

You did a great job not so long ago ferney with a thread that started with Schoenberg & Webern, tarried with Babbitt, taking in Feldman on the way. I learned a lot from it

[Arcades Project]

'

[gradus]

Another musician who seemed underwhelmed by Mozart was Peter Warlock, 'dapper' was I think the epithet of choice and one can sometimes see what he meant.

[Beef Oven]

Another musician who seemed underwhelmed by Mozart was Peter Warlock, 'dapper' was I think the epithet of choice and one can sometimes see what he meant.

Philip Heseltine held a similar view. Great minds think alike.

[Ferretfancy]

Warlock lived in an era when the dapper view of Mozart dominated, but then there fewer performances of his best works. Recordings were few and often poor. My 1950 Record Guide mentions only a handful of the piano concertos, and oddly there are no recommendations for Nos. 22 -27 Again, only five string quartets are listed, and only one nearly complete Figaro and Don Giovanni.

We are so lucky today to have a much more complete view of Mozart than Warlock had - he was Brian Sewell's dad by the way.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Philip Heseltine held a similar view. Great minds think alike.