How do you convert a Mozart sceptic?

[Stanfordian]

I have a music-loving friend who struggles with Mozart. I've tried to win him over with some choice selections, in conversations reminiscent of Monty Python's what-have-the-Romans-ever-done-for-us. But, ultimately, he concludes that there are just a handful of exceptions to his general indifference. His view, and I've heard it from other people too, is that Mozart is just too darn polite and/or formulaic/obvious.

I empathise because it also took me a while to come round to him, and perhaps because I still agree that there are some significant chunks of his output to which the criticisms seem to apply pretty well. But, over time, the number of "exceptions" that I found I liked grew sufficiently to constitute a substantial body of work. If that sounds ridiculously arrogant - lucky old Mozart must be oh-so-relieved that I deign to appreciate his works - then that is completely unintended. I'm sure there are many, many cases where my failure to enjoy his compositions is purely my loss and attributable to my ignorance. He is not my favourite composer, but his best music seems to plumb the greatest depths of sadness and reach the loftiest heights of joy - and does so at least partly because of its honesty, its apparent refusal to strain for effect.

How do other boarders react to Mozart, and what are the works that you think most likely to convert a sceptic?

Hiya Andrew Preview, I've just come across this interesting thread. Someone once told me that music appreciation is a process. At one time Mozart was one of my lesser regarded composers but with the assistance of a talented music tutor, over time I have begun to love Mozart’s music and regard him as a genius.

[french frank]

Or indeed what is an over-reaction.

Any praise for something one doesn't agree with, or enjoy, is excessive, of course. Just as opposition to or criticism of something that one approves of is an over-reaction.

Heh, heh! I'm not sure that I would see it in the same way: If someone likes something more than I do, I think that's just a statement of fact: X likes Y more than I like Y (like, that's how things are). Whereas 'excessive' and 'overreaction' have a subjective element, don't they, suggesting people are in the wrong to be so extreme?

[David-G]

... some of the operas are wonderful - terrific music & searching explorations of the human condition (but I think his libretist might have helped there).

Exactly. Terrific music and searching explorations of the human condition. Mozart in a nutshell.

Of course any opera composer requires a fine librettist. But da Ponte's contribution to the operas does not detract from Mozart's; rather, it inspired Mozart to even greater heights.

[verismissimo]

How sad, on returning after some time, to note that the unpleasantness is still going strong. From the same people, of course supported later by the same members of the clique.

I just don't see this. What am I missing?

[french frank]

& the Exsultate Jubilate is a 'fun' piece.

And he was 17 when he composed that (K165) [recte 16 - just before his 17th birthday]

Emily Anderson's translation of a reference in one of Mozart's letters tries to catch the style of the original:

"I for have the primo a uomo [Rauzzini] motet compose which to tomorrow at Church the Theatine perform be will."

[David-G]

... From the start, with his father touring him round Europe, & continued by the Salzburg tourist board a Mozart myth has been built up that he is unique among composers.

Mozart's uniqueness, if it exists, is to be found in his music. It has absolutely nothing to do with his father touring him around Europe, or with the Salzburg tourist board. Of course, all composers are unique. But having fallen under Mozart's spell, I would contend that perhaps he is indeed more unique than others.

[Arcades Project]

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[Dave2002]

Persuading someone who is left cold by certain music - it depends; if they are keen to get some idea of what other people hear in the music, I think all you can do (with a nice circularity) is play them some of the music. Whether the below from YouTube would do the trick I don't know, but it's an excuse to share some (IMO) wonderful Mozart playing. I find it strange that someone could remain unmoved by this, but then there are people who have the oddest ideas about ... oh contemporary music or improv. I hope my fellow Mozart admirers enjoy this as much as I do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nqtVQGWQBQ

Lovely, and Mozart's 27th piano concerto is one of many which I enjoy a lot. However, it struck me that the following qualities come out from this:

elegance
contrasting themes
calm development
relatively restrained dynamics
restrained key and harmonic variety
interchange between soloists and instrumental groups
steady tempo

It may be that a listener wants more or different things. Mozart can offer more, in different pieces, but generally will not provide extremes of loudness, extremes of tempo, wildness or some other qualities. Mozart can do chromaticism, and even 12 note music - the last movement of one of the symphonies uses all 12 notes - but generally his music does not wander tonally like Mahler, Strauss, Wagner, nor is it atonal, or aleatoric. A listener who wants those characteristics should listen elsewhere.

[french frank]

Oh, dear - and I got up early to get on with some work :-) - but thank you for posting that.

[Referring to the Mozart PC vid.]

[cloughie]

It may be that a listener wants more or different things. Mozart can offer more, in different pieces, but generally will not provide extremes of loudness, extremes of tempo, wildness or some other qualities. Mozart can do chromaticism, and even 12 note music - the last movement of one of the symphonies uses all 12 notes - but generally his music does not wander tonally like Mahler, Strauss, Wagner, nor is it atonal, or aleatoric. A listener who wants those characteristics should listen elsewhere.

No but not many composers did in the late eighteenth century, I would argue that he was a key element in the evolution towards these things. Whilst his operas may not be seen as a blueprint for Salome or Elektra there is possibly a link through to Rosenkavalier.

[Dave2002]

No but not many composers did in the late eighteenth century, I would argue that he was a key element in the evolution towards these things. Whilst his operas may not be seen as a blueprint for Salome or Elektra there is possibly a link through to Rosenkavalier.

I could have gone backwards in time, as well as looking forward from Mozart's. The characteristics of earlier music are different again - polyphonic choral music (smooth, mellifluous), dance rhythms in Renaissance and Medieval period music (vibrant, dynamic), etc..

One thing which I think has changed is the way words and music relate - or not. Some early music is really quite monotonous - with music presumably intended to accompany words - which themselves tell a story. Thus one might have a 5, 10 or even 20 verse song, with each verse being musically more or less identical to the last, but the words and the story are interesting. Sometimes they are like long shaggy dog stories, with a final denouement. I think we lose the appreciation of this, and often we don't understand the words anyway because of language issues. Listening traditions were different centuries ago - there were no films, TV etc. to watch.

Modern day pop music doesn't usually do this either, because it's so compressed - amongst other reasons.

In the 20th Century there were still some listening and performing traditions which have perhaps now largely vanished from our culture. How many people would go out in an evening to sing "On Ilkely moor baht'at"? nowadays?

[jean]

Some early music is really quite monotonous...

That's fighting talk!

[anamnesis]

1) Requiem
2) Mass in C minor
3) Mass in C - 'Coronation Mass'
4) Idomeneo
5) Don Giovanni
6) All piano concertos from 1784 onwards
7) Symphonies 35-41

8) string quintet g-minor K 516

[cloughie]

In the 20th Century there were still some listening and performing traditions which have perhaps now largely vanished from our culture. How many people would go out in an evening to sing "On Ilkely moor baht'at"? nowadays?

Maybe not that song but down here in Cornwall there's many a pub that has informal singing and probably it exists in England also.

[Arcades Project]

It may be that a listener wants more or different things.

Well yes. Except I don't see why it's so difficult to appreciate different music for its different characteristics. I don't expect Machaut to sound like Schütz or Schütz like Mozart or Mozart like Mahler or Mahler like Morton Feldman or Morton Feldman like Hans-Joachim Hespos - but whenever I listen to those composers I don't spend my time wishing (a) exhibited the musical characteristics of (b) etc. There's music I don't get on with, of course, but that's not because it doesn't sound like something else.