The Development of the Orchestral Horn. A Brief History

[Hornspieler]

There has been correspondence and I am pleased to be able to post that photo in all its full-sized glory, of the youthful HS



Ein Hornspieler writes:

"On the photo, note that the return part of the 3rd valve slide goes to the first valve. There are then a little succession of small tubes connecting behind the valves to the exit. But if the 1st valve is depressed in conjunction with the 3rd, one of those little extra bits of tubing is rerouted into another short length to compensate for the increase in tube length.

As a crude example: If a horn in F (12 ft long) is lowered by one tone by adding a foot of tubing, then a horn in E flat, which has now become 13 feet long requires more than an extra foot to lower it a further tone."

Many thanks, Caliban. (I do hope that nobody now considers me to be a crude example of a hornplayer!

[LaurieWatt]

Yes, but it's not so much a matter of physics as a matter of convenience. Let's just leave horns for moment:

A clarinettist will normally carry two instruments - one pitched in B flat and the other pitched in A.
Which would he rather use? Well, if the music is written in a sharp key, say D major or B major, the notes will require less complicated cross fingering on the A clarinet but if the piece is in F, the B flat clarinet is the obvious choice. Composers write their full score and parts accordingly (Most instrumentallists are quite used to reading off a piano part using a B flat clarinet and would not even think of it as transposing).

The conductor, on the other hand has to interpret what is written in the clarinet part to relate it to the rest of the score.

Now what about the horn and trumpet parts, written in the key of the piece?
Horn in F = one fifth lower than indicated. (Now a universal standard)
Horn in D= one minor tenth lower than indicated
Horn in A = one major third higher than indicated
Horn in C = one octave lower than indicated

Conductors reading a score are quite used to turning these into concert pitch without thinking about it.

Nowadays, most horn parts are written for horn in F. Why? Because it is a matter of convenience. It keeps the most used part of the instrument's compass within two ledger lines either way of the G clef (Treble Clef)
The same applies to Alto clef (Violas, Trombones, Bassoons)
Tenor Clef (Cellos, Trombones, Bassoons)

So the clef at the front of the stave indicates the pitch of the notes. It doesn't seem to worry conductors, so what is all the fuss about transposition?

We're just used to it - just as a pianist doesn't have to think twice when his music goes onto the bass clef(or vice versa)

HS

**Back in the late fifties, I took part in a Schools Science programme on TV about the properties of sound.
I arranged a well known tune to be played on a trio of hosepipes of different lengths. My co-conspiritors were the trumpet player Stan Payne and a dear friend who had once played trombone with the Ivy Benson Band, but more recognisable as a BBC TV continuity announcer, Sheila Tracey.

We played an arrangement for hosepipes, using our mouthpieces in one end, of course and with plastic funnels stuck in the other end (more for authenticity than amplification) of "Here's a Health unto His Majesty" and then went on to demonstrated the harmonic series used on our own instruments.

What a wonderful and colourful cornucopia of historical and technical largesse all this and the rest of the thread is...! Much enjoyed; better informed and wiser....! Well..

[verismissimo]

What a wonderful and colourful cornucopia of historical and technical largesse all this and the rest of the thread is...! Much enjoyed; better informed and wiser....! Well..

Seconded!

[MrGongGong]

Many thanks, Caliban. (I do hope that nobody now considers me to be a crude example of a hornplayer!

I didn't know Feargal Sharkey played the horn

[Hornspieler]

What a wonderful and colourful cornucopia of historical and technical largesse all this and the rest of the thread is...! Much enjoyed; better informed and wiser....! Well..

Funny that you should use that word, Laurie.

When I sat for my School Certificate in 1947, for Music, practical, one had to pass Grade V of the Associated Board.

The test piece, a suite of five movements composed by Thomas F Dunhill and dedicated to the horn player and teacher Frank Probyn was entitled ....

yes, you've guessed it ....CORNUCOPIA

Good night all,

HS

[Barbirollians]

HS - what a treasure trove of information you, salymap and Waldhorn are .

I feel that we are very blessed to have so many senior contributors from different backgrounds with so much to tell us .

[Hornspieler]

HS - what a treasure trove of information you, salymap and Waldhorn are .

I feel that we are very blessed to have so many senior contributors from different backgrounds with so much to tell us .

Aw shucks, Barbie. I was only showing off.

HS

[Hornspieler]

Wide awake, thanks, HS - lots of stuff here of which I was unaware (as a lapsed violinist, I'd always assumed that when you depressed a valve, the pitch went up! ). Can I just clarify that I've got this right - on a Valved instrument, if you don't use the valves, you get the "natural" notes (eg C - F - G - A); press the first valve and these become Bb - Eb - F - G; the second creates B - E - F# - G#; and the third A - D - E - F#? And that to get C#, the player has to use 2 + 3 and adjust the embouchure/hand in bell position? And using 1 + 2 + 3 the result is a sharp tritone from the open notes? And that you can get microtonal alterations from using combinations of valves?

Sorry for the barrage, but these sort of practical technicalities fascinate me.

I've only just picked up on what you said here, Ferney.

I'm sure you will be pleased to know that you were almost correct about what the valves did, because there were some instruments made - I believe in France, but I'm sure that waldhorn would know - in which the 3rd valve, instead lowering the pitch by a minor third (nominally changing an F horn into a D horn) actually raised the pitch by a tone, thus making it a G horn.

So, 1st + 2nd valves still lowered the pitch by a minor third.
2nd + 3rd valves put the horn into F# (Wow, that could be useful!)
1st + 3rd valves would cancel each other out, so no point in using both at the same time.

I would like to have tried one of those in my youth, but the opportunity never arose.

HS

BTW I've changed my avatar again from a 14 year old ambitious youth to a 39 year old "why the heck am I still doing this?" professional.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm sure you will be pleased to know that you were almost correct about what the valves did, because there were some instruments made - I believe in France, but I'm sure that waldhorn would know - in which the 3rd valve, instead lowering the pitch by a minor third (nominally changing an F horn into a D horn) actually raised the pitch by a tone, thus making it a G horn.

So, 1st + 2nd valves still lowered the pitch by a minor third.
2nd + 3rd valves put the horn into F# (Wow, that could be useful!)
1st + 3rd valves would cancel each other out, so no point in using both at the same time.

I would like to have tried one of those in my youth, but the opportunity never arose.

Blimey! That must've been confusing if you were used to the non_french fingering system: like playing a piano with the keys reversed (highest notes on the left, etc)?

[Stan Drews]

Forgive me if this has been marked in another thread, but Nicholas Busch former LPO principal horn for many years, died last Wednesday at the age of 73. He'll be remembered for many things - I've always had a soft spot for his Britten Serenade (with Ian Partridge) and the Strauss Last Songs (Lucia Popp/Tennstedt). There's also a nice story of him "returning to the scene of the crime" to do a patch in the Barbirolli Mahler 5 - years after the event
. R.I P.

[salymap]

Forgive me if this has been marked in another thread, but Nicholas Busch former LPO principal horn for many years, died last Wednesday at the age of 73. He'll be remembered for many things - I've always had a soft spot for his Britten Serenade (with Ian Partridge) and the Strauss Last Songs (Lucia Popp/Tennstedt). There's also a nice story of him "returning to the scene of the crime" to do a patch in the Barbirolli Mahler 5 - years after the event
. R.I P.

If you look for a thread 'Recording Gaffs' on CD review section, there are several posts and a website about him.

Welcome, by the way

[amateur51]

If you look for a thread 'Recording Gaffs' on CD review section, there are several posts and a website about him.

Welcome, by the way

Welcome indeed Stan Drew!

Here's the interview/appreciation that salymap mentioned:

http://www.christopherparkes.com/page2/page3/index.html

[Roehre]

many thanks to HS and the other contributors for this splendid thread

[slarty]

It must be heartening to have such a distinguished former horn player as a conductor fast approaching the top rank as Sebastian Weigle, MD at the Frankfurt Opera and recent success at Bayreuth, the former 1st horn at the Berlin State Opera. Not enough orchestral musicians seem to make it into the top flight.
Kempe was one (Oboe) and Giulini (viola) was another, but I can't remember a premiere horn player that went onto becoming a top line conductor. were there any others?

[Pabmusic]

...I can't remember a premiere horn player that went onto becoming a top line conductor. were there any others?

Hans Richter, though it was a long time ago.