The Development of the Orchestral Horn. A Brief History

[salymap]

Quite right Cali, playing or thinking, not both at once. Where's the fun in that ?

[Hornspieler]

Is Mr Cousins the eccentric gentleman who slept in a tent in his house, rather than a bed?

I remember hearing about that some time ago

Quite true. F C claimed to have American Indian ancestry and he erected a tepee in the lounge of his Glasgow apartment (the ceilings in Kelvinside are all very high) and he claimed that he made up his bed in there.

HS

[Hornspieler]

Likewise!

Having seen references to the VPO's horns in John Culshaw's book Ring Resounding - should we be listening out for any discernible differences in sonority, tone etc. on September 6?

I think that this is a question more suited to waldhorn as I have never played a Viennese horn, which has a most peculiar set of sleeve valves, operated upside down by levers and is, I think, of a bore more similar to that of our own redundant "French" horns. Certainly they do appear to have an F crook. I love the sound and have always envied the expertise of the Vienna players.

HS

[Hornspieler]

Any chance you could post a larger copy of the photo on-thread? Those avatars being postage-stamp size make seeing detail rather tricky! Would love to check out your 'compensating arrangement' ! (Sounds rather legalistic...!)



Especially where experience tells that absence of knowledge is absolutely no bar to contributions in the Forum !!

For example I know nothing about this and am fascinated by this thread... and more than happy to say so!

I did write a reply to this post and it has somehow disappeared, so I will start again.

Send me a PM with an email address and I will attach the original picture (copy of a very old and tattered original photo) so that you may view it and publish it on these boards if you so wish; but I have tried to understand the instructions and got nowhere.

Regarding your later post, re transposition:

Trumpet players also have to transpose - almost as much as horn players. Clarinets sometime find a part for the now redundant C clarinet and have to transpose up a tone on their B flat instrument - at speed! I personally use a system of different clefs - Treble, Bass, Alto, Tenor and Soprano to identify middle C on the stave and go from there.

A knowledge of notation in tonic-sol-fah is helpful for some.

If we had to sightread and play at the speed demanded of a flautist or if we had to play almost non-stop throughout a concert, like a violinist, I would agree with the legend that the horn is the most difficult instrument in the orchestra - but it isn't, because all instruments are written to the limits of their technical ability - and sometimes beyond, these days!

Anyway, it pays us to keep the legend going to cover our shortcomings and off-days.

HS

[Nick Armstrong]

I did write a reply to this post and it has somehow disappeared, so I will start again.

Send me a PM with an email address and I will attach the original picture (copy of a very old and tattered original photo) so that you may view it and publish it on these boards if you so wish; but I have tried to understand the instructions and got nowhere.

Regarding your later post, re transposition:

Trumpet players also have to transpose - almost as much as horn players. Clarinets sometime find a part for the now redundant C clarinet and have to transpose up a tone on their B flat instrument - at speed! I personally use a system of different clefs - Treble, Bass, Alto, Tenor and Soprano to identify middle C on the stave and go from there.

A knowledge of notation in tonic-sol-fah is helpful for some.

If we had to sightread and play at the speed demanded of a flautist or if we had to play almost non-stop throughout a concert, like a violinist, I would agree with the legend that the horn is the most difficult instrument in the orchestra - but it isn't, because all instruments are written to the limits of their technical ability - and sometimes beyond, these days!

Anyway, it pays us to keep the legend going to cover our shortcomings and off-days.

HS

Thanks for this, HS (and sorry your earlier post got lost. infuriating when that happens! V good of you to trouble to go through it all again!). A PM will wing its way to you

[MrGongGong]

I think the whole "issue" of transposition is often made more confusing that necessary
the problem IMV is that (as with other things in music) is that it's somehow seen as "odd" rather than being a simple matter of physics
so an understanding of basic acoustics means that it all makes perfect sense
BUT it's always presented to students as some huge complex area of arcane knowledge rather than a simple concept
(different length tubes have different fundamentals) easily explained with a flip flop and some carpet tubes !

(big up your mates http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2013/...phs-of-the-day ...... scroll down for a rather nice Alex)

[salymap]

I have just found my 'Musicator' - a little wheel that I used sometimes when proof-checking,
[no computer help in the 1950s]

It looks terrifying now, but I know I found it useful in my work.I am sure no real musician would own up to such a tool.

[mercia]

I thought the idea of alto and tenor clefs was to avoid a lot of music on ledger lines - when caliban writes out his tenor clef music in the bass clef doesn't he end up with a lot of music above the stave ?

just trying to work it out in my small brain

[MrGongGong]

I thought the idea of alto and tenor clefs was to avoid a lot of music on ledger lines - when caliban writes out his tenor clef music in the bass clef doesn't he end up with a lot of music above the stave ?

just trying to work it out in my small brain

You could say that about all clefs

[Once Was 4]

Sorry to be pedantic but Farquharson Cousins was actually Principal horn in the old Yorkshire Symphony Orchestra before his time in Scotland. He moved to Leeds from the CBSO and claims that he took a set of golf clubs into the audition with the YSO's Musical Director (Maurice Miles) having played a concerto with the CBSO the previous night. The result? he got the job without having to play a note!

There are a fund of stories about him - most of which he tells himself. A composer/trumpet player/conductor of a similar vintage (both in their 90th decade) who lived with Mr Cousins in Glasgow relates how he once started a fire by rubbing two twigs together on the banks of a snowy Loch Lomond in order to cook bacon and eggs on a New Year's Day walk.

By the way, the sad story of the Yorkshire Symphony Orchestra seems to be slipping away from living memory now. Several players who stayed in Leeds were still working in the 70s and I worked with them all. Sadly, they are all now deceased. If anybody is interested, they should seek out a copy of 'The Glorious Experiment (which failed)' which was self-published by the late David Grundy. I have seen copies in public libraries.

[LeMartinPecheur]

There are a fund of stories about him - most of which he tells himself. A composer/trumpet player/conductor of a similar vintage (both in their 90th decade) who lived with Mr Cousins in Glasgow relates how he once started a fire by rubbing two twigs together on the banks of a snowy Loch Lomond in order to cook bacon and eggs on a New Year's Day walk.

And there was I thinking life expectancy is scandalously low in the North...

[salymap]

Sorry to be pedantic but Farquharson Cousins was actually Principal horn in the old Yorkshire Symphony Orchestra before his time in Scotland. He moved to Leeds from the CBSO and claims that he took a set of golf clubs into the audition with the YSO's Musical Director (Maurice Miles) having played a concerto with the CBSO the previous night. The result? he got the job without having to play a note!

There are a fund of stories about him - most of which he tells himself. A composer/trumpet player/conductor of a similar vintage (both in their 90th decade) who lived with Mr Cousins in Glasgow relates how he once started a fire by rubbing two twigs together on the banks of a snowy Loch Lomond in order to cook bacon and eggs on a New Year's Day walk.

By the way, the sad story of the Yorkshire Symphony Orchestra seems to be slipping away from living memory now. Several players who stayed in Leeds were still working in the 70s and I worked with them all. Sadly, they are all now deceased. If anybody is interested, they should seek out a copy of 'The Glorious Experiment (which failed)' which was self-published by the late David Grundy. I have seen copies in public libraries.

Iworked in an orchestral hire library and well remember the YSO and their distinctive notepaper. They were regular customers and they didn't seem to have much of alibrary of their own. They disappeared quite suddenly I believe. It was sad.

[Nick Armstrong]

when caliban writes out his tenor clef music in the bass clef doesn't he end up with a lot of music above the stave ?

Yes! But it's not too bad... a trombone part doesn't that often go above the F above middle C, so only two ledger lines. Once in a while there's a G or an A (that pianissimo high A entry in the last movement of Brahms #1 for instance ) and I write neatly enough to cope with the odd triple decker. But it's a pathetic and lazy habit and only possible because I do it so rarely!

[Nick Armstrong]

...an old photo of me playing on my first instrument at age 14. This is a "French" horn, made by Boosey and Co but with a "compensating arrangement for the piston slides, to correct the tuning discrepancy when the 1st and 3rd pistons are used together. This arrangement of valves is now common on tubas and the like but was very innovative at the time.

There has been correspondence and I am pleased to be able to post that photo in all its full-sized glory, of the youthful HS



Ein Hornspieler writes:

"On the photo, note that the return part of the 3rd valve slide goes to the first valve. There are then a little succession of small tubes connecting behind the valves to the exit. But if the 1st valve is depressed in conjunction with the 3rd, one of those little extra bits of tubing is rerouted into another short length to compensate for the increase in tube length.

As a crude example: If a horn in F (12 ft long) is lowered by one tone by adding a foot of tubing, then a horn in E flat, which has now become 13 feet long requires more than an extra foot to lower it a further tone."

[Hornspieler]

I think the whole "issue" of transposition is often made more confusing that necessary
the problem IMV is that (as with other things in music) is that it's somehow seen as "odd" rather than being a simple matter of physics
so an understanding of basic acoustics means that it all makes perfect sense
BUT it's always presented to students as some huge complex area of arcane knowledge rather than a simple concept
(different length tubes have different fundamentals) easily explained with a flip flop and some carpet tubes !**
(big up your mates http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2013/...phs-of-the-day ...... scroll down for a rather nice Alex)

Yes, but it's not so much a matter of physics as a matter of convenience. Let's just leave horns for moment:

A clarinettist will normally carry two instruments - one pitched in B flat and the other pitched in A.
Which would he rather use? Well, if the music is written in a sharp key, say D major or B major, the notes will require less complicated cross fingering on the A clarinet but if the piece is in F, the B flat clarinet is the obvious choice. Composers write their full score and parts accordingly (Most instrumentallists are quite used to reading off a piano part using a B flat clarinet and would not even think of it as transposing).

The conductor, on the other hand has to interpret what is written in the clarinet part to relate it to the rest of the score.

Now what about the horn and trumpet parts, written in the key of the piece?
Horn in F = one fifth lower than indicated. (Now a universal standard)
Horn in D= one minor tenth lower than indicated
Horn in A = one major third higher than indicated
Horn in C = one octave lower than indicated

Conductors reading a score are quite used to turning these into concert pitch without thinking about it.

Nowadays, most horn parts are written for horn in F. Why? Because it is a matter of convenience. It keeps the most used part of the instrument's compass within two ledger lines either way of the G clef (Treble Clef)
The same applies to Alto clef (Violas, Trombones, Bassoons)
Tenor Clef (Cellos, Trombones, Bassoons)

So the clef at the front of the stave indicates the pitch of the notes. It doesn't seem to worry conductors, so what is all the fuss about transposition?

We're just used to it - just as a pianist doesn't have to think twice when his music goes onto the bass clef(or vice versa)

HS

**Back in the late fifties, I took part in a Schools Science programme on TV about the properties of sound.
I arranged a well known tune to be played on a trio of hosepipes of different lengths. My co-conspiritors were the trumpet player Stan Payne and a dear friend who had once played trombone with the Ivy Benson Band, but more recognisable as a BBC TV continuity announcer, Sheila Tracey.

We played an arrangement for hosepipes, using our mouthpieces in one end, of course and with plastic funnels stuck in the other end (more for authenticity than amplification) of "Here's a Health unto His Majesty" and then went on to demonstrated the harmonic series used on our own instruments.

It was a great success at the time.

Have a go, Caliban!