Once too often......

[Suffolkcoastal]

I'll agree with you on the Tchaikovsky Ff but not the RVW. The 5th is the one Tchaikovsky Symphony I don't really care for, plus it is overplayed especially when major orchestras do the provincial rounds. R3 over exposure of certain Ravel works has temporarily put me off a fair bit of Ravel, so I now carefully avoid it on R3. Plus I never want to hear another one of Brahms Hungarian Dances ever again. We've already had nearly 70 of the wretched little pieces on R3 so far this year and I always seem to catch one when casually tuning in. Finally the Vivaldi Four Seasons, I had 'Spring' as an O Level set work and have hated it ever since and I'm afraid Nige put me off the rest.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

No, it's in Holz's recollections as communicated to Frau Linzbauer, as quoted by Thayer/Deiters/Riemann vol.5, p.326 note 1, as well as in Ludwig Nohl, Beethoven, Liszt and Wagner. I've seen the former, not the latter. The latter discusses the finale of the Ninth which was considered by Wagner as the non-plus-ultra, however pointing out that Beethoven eventually was less impressed by that movement.

The sketch for an alternative finale is found in pocket sketchbook Autograph 10, bundle 2, now in Berlin, just before the page which Schindler [incorrectly] marked as Beethoven's last thoughts, a scherzo.

Hmm; so nothing from the composer himself to suggest that his ideas for an alternative, purely orchestral Finale for the Ninth Symphony were nothing other than to make it more "programmable" (just as the alternative finale to Op 130 isn't evidence of Beethoven's unhappiness with the Grosse Fuge)?

[cloughie]

Fur Elise (sorry I can't do umlauts :( ) and the Debussy Arabesques thanks to a piano teacher who was the forerunner of Hyacinth Bucket

That's a great shame the Debussy Arabesques are just beauty in music - sounds like your Hyacinth was guilty of more than you could have realised at the time.

[Barbirollians]

Barber Adagio for Strings

[Hautboiste]

That's a great shame the Debussy Arabesques are just beauty in music - sounds like your Hyacinth was guilty of more than you could have realised at the time.

My father and I could never understand why my mother chose her as my teacher when William Walton's brother gave piano lessons at a much mre convenient location in town. My horror stoies of her are legion sadly :(

[Serial_Apologist]

My father and I could never understand why my mother chose her as my teacher when William Walton's brother gave piano lessons at a much mre convenient location in town. My horror stoies of her are legion sadly :(

If she too had a "French" surname prefixed with "de", then quite possibly we had the same teacher. "I must get you some MUZZART piano sonatas! I Do so love MUZZART, don't you??"

[Roehre]

Hmm; so nothing from the composer himself to suggest that his ideas for an alternative, purely orchestral Finale for the Ninth Symphony were nothing other than to make it more "programmable" (just as the alternative finale to Op 130 isn't evidence of Beethoven's unhappiness with the Grosse Fuge)?

Except that op.130/133 was "inspired" by the publisher's (or even publishers') wishes, and replacing the finale of 9 would have got its precedent in removing (and then publish separately) movements like those of e.g. the Waldstein, or swapping them (as in the case of opus 30no.1/47, or -before the scores were finished- of the Alla Tedesca from op.132 to 130), all of which were made for artistic reasons of some kind.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Except that op.130/133 was "inspired" by the publisher's (or even publishers') wishes, and replacing the finale of 9 would have got its precedent in removing (and then publish separately) movements like those of e.g. the Waldstein, or swapping them (as in the case of opus 30no.1/47, or -before the scores were finished- of the Alla Tedesca from op.132 to 130), all of which were made for artistic reasons of some kind.

But, isn't it the case that the Waldstein and S4tet alterations were all done before publication, whilst Beethoven's sketches for an alternative finale for tha Ninth were written after the publication of the complete Symphony in 1826 (two years after the work's premiere)?

[Roehre]

But, isn't it the case that the Waldstein and S4tet alterations were all done before publication, whilst Beethoven's sketches for an alternative finale for tha Ninth were written after the publication of the complete Symphony in 1826 (two years after the work's premiere)?

For the Waldstein, op.130/133 and the Ninth Symphony the moment of Beethoven changing his mind lay between the first public performance and the publication of the (full) score.
It's interesting here that Beethoven asked the publishers as late as August 1826 not to send a copy of the score to the dedicatee (the King of Prussia), and that -though the printed score must have been ready not later than December 1826- it was not publicly announced until April 1827, a month after Beethoven's death.
This is an important fact, as the published score of opus 130 with op.133 as its finale was ready before the decision was made to separate these works and that Beethoven would supply a new finale for op.130 (Their publication was delayed to May 1827, btw).
The sketch for an instrumental finale (not the ones found among the main sketches or those for op.132) most likely date from the same time, December 1826 (Beethoven's last known sketches date from December 1826 upto the first week of 1827: possibly for a new finale of the Ninth, a string quintet, a flute quintet (i.e. flute + string quartet), Mass/Requiem in c-sharp-minor)

[jayne lee wilson]

It's a difficult argument though - isn't it? To justify one's own doubts about a piece by adducing the composer's afterthoughts and so on, especially in the face of a completed, performed work.
Perhaps Beethoven himself was shocked at what he'd done - the "anti-integration" of the finale? Isn't there an interesting parallel here with the Grosse Fuge which can also sound shockingly large and over-contrasted with the preceding Op.130 movements? We can never know just how deep Beethoven's doubts actually were, and still have to deal with the work as it stands. (The choral finale is after all, a remarkable, multilayered symphonic structure in itself).

Yes I love it, yes I'm emotionally biased, but the first three movements seem to me on a very different plane from any previous symphony - cosmic, Apollonian, an "elevated" atmosphere almost of remoteness from Earthly concerns; doesn't the finale have to be "shocking" after that, "over-contrasted"? That extraordinary coda to the adagio, what "on Earth" are you going to follow THAT with? The eruption, the db recitative - for me, this shock, this violent contrast shakes me but - somehow, "makes sense"...
Perhaps the human voice appears, the "Alle Menschen", as a kind of balance - a part of a grander unity. If you consider the difficulty Bruckner had with his 9th's finale, you can guess at the challenge Beethoven would have faced to create a more subtly integrated, purely orchestral finale!

There are several late works which make one wonder, if only they'd lived longer... for me, the Mahler 9 Landler 2nd movement has never quite seemed to "fit" with the rest of the piece - in its feel, its "atmosphere". Ironically, the 10th always looks like it would have been a better-integrated structure from that classical, "balanced" point of view. I admire and love Cooke's work hugely, but again, "if only..."

[Roehre]

....The choral finale is after all, a remarkable, multilayered symphonic structure in itself....

No, it isn't. It's not multi-layered or symphonic in structure.
It's definitely a good piece of music in its own right. But it is "only" an extended variation mvt similar to the Diabelli-variations, it is not symphonic like the mvts 1-3 are, especially the firstmvt taking symphonic thinking into upto then unchartered territory. With this finale the whole structure falls flat on its face, as the introduction of this sung text means a one-dimensional song à la French revolutionary hymns concludes a really multi-layered structure without adding any further value other than the unprecedented introduction of the human voice within what at that time was understood to be a symphony. It's a novelty - a far reaching one- but that in itself doesn't make the 9th finale a good symphonic mvt.

[jayne lee wilson]

Sorry to trot this out again, but I have to get support from SOMEWHERE...

"Its structure is both subtle and strong, and its precursor, the finale of the Eroica, has been almost equally misunderstood. The last movement of the 9th is an organic blend of variations and sonata, with both introduction and symphonic coda, and not without a suggestion of rondo. Structurally it is a summing-up of classical possibilities, all expressed in a single huge design with astonishing certainty of touch. It even has the shade of the classical concerto in it, as if Beethoven, like Bach in The Art of Fugue, were intent on expressing everything he knew in one mighty act."

- Robert Simpson in "Beethoven Symphonies" (BBC Music Guides). I'm pretty sure Hans Keller had similar views, but I can't dig them out just now.

[Hornspieler]

No, it isn't. It's not multi-layered or symphonic in structure.
It's definitely a good piece of music in its own right. But it is "only" an extended variation mvt similar to the Diabelli-variations, it is not symphonic like the mvts 1-3 are, especially the firstmvt taking symphonic thinking into upto then unchartered territory. With this finale the whole structure falls flat on its face, as the introduction of this sung text means a one-dimensional song à la French revolutionary hymns concludes a really multi-layered structure without adding any further value other than the unprecedented introduction of the human voice within what at that time was understood to be a symphony. It's a novelty - a far reaching one- but that in itself doesn't make the 9th finale a good symphonic mvt.

I quite agree, Roehre.

For me, this movement belongs with the "Choral Fantasia" (Receive the Gifts of God Divine.)

Acceptable in its own right as a choral work and a marked improvement on the Choral Fantasia (Which would have benefitted greatly by getting rid of that blasted piano part.)

Imagine Beethoven's 9th with a sparkling finale as in his second or fourth symphonies. (My choice would be the second symphony to match with what has gone before.)

Yes Jayne! Wash my mouth out with soap and water for daring to utter such heresey - but I am certainly not alone in my views.

HS

[cloughie]

I quite agree, Roehre.

For me, this movement belongs with the "Choral Fantasia" (Receive the Gifts of God Divine.)

Acceptable in its own right as a choral work and a marked improvement on the Choral Fantasia (Which would have benefitted greatly by getting rid of that blasted piano part.)

Imagine Beethoven's 9th with a sparkling finale as in his second or fourth symphonies. (My choice would be the second symphony to match with what has gone before.)

Yes Jayne! Wash my mouth out with soap and water for daring to utter such heresey - but I am certainly not alone in my views.

HS

HS you've hit it right on the head - a sparkling finale needed - not like the seventh - not because it's not good but have to bear in mind the quick second movement. How could he write 36 great movements and the get the 37th wrong?

[cloughie]

George Lloyd, Symphony no 8.




Heard it once.


("Harpsichords and Irritating Period Pianos", indeed!)

Heard Petroc and Katie D on Radio Cornwall this morning interviewed by David White plugging the Proms - Petroc, the Helston boy, was keen to promote St Ives boy George Lloyd's HMS Trinidad on the Last Night. Got to say they did a good job in an affable, amusing way.