Once too often......

[jayne lee wilson]

Cloughie and HS - you've not really addressed any of my points in my post (no.40) or indeed Robert Simpson's (no.42). NOBODY on this forum ever seems willing to do that. You may or may not consider me an intelligent listener, but surely the composer of 11 symphonies (several great, none of them exactly negligible!), in many ways a modern successor to Beethoven and a wonderful analyst and commentator in his own right, is worthy of respect, and attention to what he has to say? Which is, after all, on an ESSENTIALLY musical level.

I'm afraid HS, that comments about mouthwashes read like so much EVASION.
But the idea of a lighter, "sparkling" finale after the first 3 movements of the 9th? After the crisis in the 1st movement development, the tragic coda at its end? (As Roehre himself says, "taking symphonic thinking into unchartered territory.") After the vast scherzo, the ethereal, remote depths of the adagio? This only seems to reveal, once again, your failure to engage with the whole work. It is a symphonic revolution - you have to see the beginning from the end, rather than the end from the beginning. Or alternatively: try not to imagine a finale to the 9th which would neatly and subtly integrate with the preceding movements, or "match" them (are they not quite extreme in themselves?). The point (for me and many others) is that the choral finale doesn't - it has to go beyond, even further into "unchartered territory" - into a wildness and even rawness of expression, flowing on a groundswell of several classical forms.

But now, I have no anger - only joy. The Symphony No.9 by Ludwig van Beethoven recently brought me that joy again, and much healing within the shadowed valley of illness and depression; but I'm a little saddened too: that you keep having to justify your bafflement - can't find a way to share in the marvels of this masterpiece - as Cardus might have said "one of the seven wonders of the symphonic world."

[Roehre]

.....The last movement of the 9th is an organic blend of variations and sonata, with both introduction and symphonic coda, and not without a suggestion of rondo. ...

which in my opinion is a nice way to say that it's structurally a mess.
Of course one can read those elements in this score: it is a variation mvt! The 3rd mvt can be described in a similar manner, but that still doesn't make it a blend of sonata, variations and rondo, despite/because the variations being based on two themes. The 2nd mvt is a scherzo-rondo if you like (comparable with e.g. Mahler IX/3).

It is weird that Beethoven included the Turkish music as an afterthought without affecting the total structure. If it were so a well-blended and organised structure as Simpson suggests, why doesn't it make a difference whether that music would, or wouldn't have been included ? And: this is not the only bit which can be removed without dire consequences for the finale's structure. For comparison: try that with Mahler 8 e.g.

[Hornspieler]

which in my opinion is a nice way to say that it's structurally a mess.
Of course one can read those elements in this score: it is a variation mvt! The 3rd mvt can be described in a similar manner, but that still doesn't make it a blend of sonata, variations and rondo, despite/because the variations being based on two themes. The 2nd mvt is a scherzo-rondo if you like (comparable with e.g. Mahler IX/3).

It is weird that Beethoven included the Turkish music as an afterthought without affecting the total structure. If it were so a well-blended and organised structure as Simpson suggests, why doesn't it make a difference whether that music would, or wouldn't have been included ? And: this is not the only bit which can be removed without dire consequences for the finale's structure. For comparison: try that with Mahler 8 e.g.

The first thing that I would do is to remove that ludicrous opening, with its references to the foregoing three movements - so beautifully paradied by G & S in their Operetta "Patience". The only reason that I can see for its existence is an attempt to tie the finale to the rest of the symphony, since there is no other logical resemblance to what has gone before, either structurally or musically.

Yes, it is a good piece of choral writing - optimistic, tuneful (if someone can find four soloists capable of leaving that dreadful solo quartet in the same key as that in which they found it) but a good rallying cry.

Well, so is "Land of Hope and Glory" but I wouldn't tack it onto the back of one of Elgar's symphonies.

You love it or you hate it. Let's just leave it there to avoid further acrimony.

HS

[cloughie]

Cloughie and HS - you've not really addressed any of my points in my post (no.40) or indeed Robert Simpson's (no.42). NOBODY on this forum ever seems willing to do that. You may or may not consider me an intelligent listener....

I would certainly call you an intelligent listener - you certainly dissect pieces far more than l do - I just listen and if what I like hits my ears - then that's it - so I've not addressed your points - and I shall continue to jump up and switch off after the third movement - yes an orchestral finale would be nice but not essential. I am also happy with Schubert's unfinished, Bruckner 9 without the reconstructed 4th movement and Mahler 10 Adagio, Deryck Cooke notwithstanding. Overexposure, abuse as the Euroanthem and use in trails has not helped the cause of the finale but thinking back I don't think I've ever liked it that much.

[salymap]

IMHO the Euroanthem was the last straw - it's a dumbing down it can't survive.

[Roehre]

(please note that this is an extended version of my msg #47)

.....The last movement of the 9th is an organic blend of variations and sonata, with both introduction and symphonic coda, and not without a suggestion of rondo. ...

which in my opinion is a nice way to say that it's structurally a mess.
Of course one can read those elements in this score: it is a variation mvt! The 3rd mvt can be described in a similar manner, but that still doesn't make it a blend of sonata, variations and rondo, despite/because the variations being based on two themes. The 2nd mvt is a scherzo-rondo if you like (comparable with e.g. Mahler IX/3).

It is weird that Beethoven included the Turkish music as an afterthought without affecting the total structure. If it were so a well-blended and organised structure as Simpson suggests, why doesn't it make a difference whether that music would, or wouldn't have been included ? And: this is not the only bit which can be removed without dire consequences for the finale's structure. For comparison: try that with Mahler 8 e.g.

....try not to imagine a finale to the 9th which would neatly and subtly integrate with the preceding movements, or "match" them (are they not quite extreme in themselves?). The point (for me and many others) is that the choral finale doesn't - it has to go beyond, even further into "unchartered territory" - into a wildness and even rawness of expression, flowing on a groundswell of several classical forms....

A dangerous remark, as who could imagine the present finale of opus 130 with its haydnesque humour and quasi simplicity replacing the grand fugue, if Beethoven would have refused to change it and consequently that wouldn't have happened?

[jayne lee wilson]

I find your comments about the Turkish music very odd, as it is immediately taken up in the next vocal section (tenor solo); then there is a fast orchestral variation on it (this could be seen as development, or part of a double-variation structure) and then it is combined with the Big Tune in the Alle Freunde choral outburst. It feeds through the rest of the movement in many shapes and guises, often it seems hard to know if this or the Alle Freunde theme is the thematic subject. As I've just shown, it even accompanies the most climactic of the Alle Freunde choral outbursts, (Come on, everyone remembers that one!). And when this chorus comes back in a syncopated variation later - the Turkish rhythm is there again. And the percussive orchestration of the coda (to say the least) most decidedly recalls its first appearance.
So if you remove its initial appearance...!
To my ears it's the 2nd subject in the sonata-structure (or the sonata "layer" at least).

Not sure why my remark seems "dangerous"(!). I'm simply trying to put across my view of the piece, and comment on the (dangerous?!) suggestions others make as to possible alternative finales.

As for the "present finale" to Op.130; heavens, THAT's hardly without controversy either is it? Arguably even more than the 9th's, since we don't have a choice of finales there. I DO think it's a fascinating parallel though: after a succession of lightfooted, subtle and delicate dances, and a short but profound adagio, the great fugue arrives, huge, jagged, dramatic in its (over-)contrasts to what precedes. Yet the allegro which replaced it could easily seem a better "match", the integration of contrasts rather more subtle. "Who could imagine it?" Well who indeed, unless those in this discussion who have already made suggestions for the 9th...

I DO (now!) have my own ideas about what kind of a finale might have featured in place of the present Choral one (not that I would WANT to replace it!)... but that's for another day - another thread perhaps?

[Suffolkcoastal]

The 'Turkish' theme is merely a variation of the 'ode' theme, in a typical Beethoven submediant (in this case flattened) key relationship. All of the arguments here have prompted me to have a look at my score again, but this has just reaffirmed that the finale is a variation movement, though I will acknowledge that it is a slightly uncoventional one, and not just because of the voices.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The 'Turkish' theme is merely a variation of the 'ode' theme, in a typical Beethoven submediant (in this case flattened) key relationship.

You know why the submediant is "flattened" here, of course?

[Roehre]

I find your comments about the Turkish music very odd, as it is immediately taken up in the next vocal section (tenor solo)

that's exactly the point: it doesn't change the structure of the movement, which points to the fact that it is a variation movement, not an integrated symphonic one. From the former you may assume that variations can be added or deleted, a symphonic structure however needs a fair amount of rewriting and re-composing to get the whole balanced again.

To my ears it's the 2nd subject in the sonata-structure (or the sonata "layer" at least)

.
Since when are 2nd subjects for the first time presented after the 1st has been elaborated and transformed as were the case here if the Freudentheme were to be defined as such?

Not sure why my remark seems "dangerous"(!).

"Very tricky" is the better description of what I mean here. It's a reasoning/argument which immediately can be reversed/used to "prove" the contrary, namely that it IS possible -given Beethoven's inventiveness and the op.130/133 example- to imagine a completely other finale.
In stead of confirming your point, it undermines it completely (and undermining is dangerous )

I DO (now!) have my own ideas about what kind of a finale might have featured in place of the present Choral one (not that I would WANT to replace it!)... but that's for another day - another thread perhaps?

and that makes two of us

[jayne lee wilson]

I think you've misunderstood the aim of my argument about possible finales, which was aimed at the suggestion of a lighter, more "classically" neat and integrated one along the lines HS suggested, like No.2 etc; this seems to me wholly misconceived, and would render the 9th topheavy (unlike Op.130, where the new finale does work because of its context (the first movement et seq. have nothing like the weight or momentum of the 9th Symphony, Op.130 is modelled on the dance-suite). So evidently I don't think it's self-undermining; I can't concede that.

As for 2nd subjects, what about Haydn Symphony No.45 (middle of otherwise monothematic movement/ development), or even the theme on oboe which occurs during the development of the Eroica 1st movement? OK, that last one is a bit far-flung, but "2nd subjects" don't always occur where the after-the-fact charting out of "sonata-form" might lead you to expect. It's more of a feeling of contrast, often of relaxation of mood or movement. There are other Haydn examples, and as for Bruckner, or the 20th Century...

You see, I think that's part of Robert Simpson's point about the 9th's finale: these forms are not fixed but fluid, hinted at, multiple, overlaid, and overlapping.

[EdgeleyRob]

Hmm,some wonderful insightful and interesting posts re the finale of Beethoven 9.
Thanks Roehre,JLW and FHG,really interesting stuff.
I am not capable of such heady writing and feel a bit apprehensive posting my thoughts among these heavyweights,but this movement I find puzzling.
I wish it was purely orchestral,once the singing starts it seems to me a little contrived and cringeworthy,oh I wish I could put this better.
I crave a fully fledged,symphonically argued and purely instrumental movement based on the Ode to Joy theme,or somethig maybe akin to the finale of Brahms 1 or Schubert 9.
Oh I can really talk some rubbish once I get going....

[cloughie]

Hmm,some wonderful insightful and interesting posts re the finale of Beethoven 9.
Thanks Roehre,JLW and FHG,really interesting stuff.
I am not capable of such heady writing and feel a bit apprehensive posting my thoughts among these heavyweights,but this movement I find puzzling.
I wish it was purely orchestral,once the singing starts it seems to me a little contrived and cringeworthy,oh I wish I could put this better.
I crave a fully fledged,symphonically argued and purely instrumental movement based on the Ode to Joy theme,or somethig maybe akin to the finale of Brahms 1 or Schubert 9.
Oh I can really talk some rubbish once I get going....

...and there I was thinking I was the only one who talked rubbish... I sometimes think I speak it fluently. I'd go for the Schubert 9 style finale. Schumann Sym 2 was some 20 years later but maybe he modelled the formula on Beet 9 but had the good sense not to go choral in the finale. Mendelssohn - great tuneful orchestral stuff inc Sym 2 Sinfonia, good chamber music, nice vocal bits in MND, but I fail to be turned on by his Hymn of Praise and Oratorio choral things.
I think it took 'til Mahler to get voices right in Symphonies - though to be honest I'm still trying to get no 8. No2 is sheer magic throughout,
No3 is too but topped with arguably the most serene finale ever written - I could listen to it forever - there are certain movements that you just want to last forever - Mahler 4/3 is another - enhanced by the right soloist in the finale to follow.

[salymap]

I can talk rubbish too and will join the last two posts in regretting that Ididn't study music more deeply, rather than just listening to it.

I spent my working life listening to musicians talking about music and usually they did the talking.

The only comment I will make on Beetn 9 - I don't want some long works like Schubert's Great C major to finish. With the Beethoven I can't wait for the last movement to end. Sorry,my loss no doubt.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I think that many Music teachers of my generation became heartily sick of the stock 'music appreciation' pieces which we used in secondary schools (until that became unfashionable with the onset of John Paynter and the creativity gang). There were some wonderful pieces among these, but it's taken some years away from the classroom to make me enjoy them again: The Planets, Hary Janos, Vltava, Young Person's Guide, Water Music, Swan Lake and so on.

To be fair on John Paynter, he wasn't the one to crush musical apprreciation in schools. He said he he thought the creative aspect should be part of a general music curriculum. It was the mindless fanatics who followed in his wake that did the damage. (I envisage MrGG sharpening his swords at this very moment.)