Fortepianos and Modern Grand Pianos

[LeMartinPecheur]

The idea of playing music originally conceived for performance on early pianos means that the resultis an "arrangment" is surely suspect. No-one has changed a note of the music as written on the page. It is merely that the instrument itself has evolved, with improvement in mind. It could however be regarded as a partial arrangement when an editor has extende the range of notes when it is clear that a composer had to restrict the range because of the shorter keyboards at the time.

Only suspect surely if all the score's notes and instructions for interpretation are available on the modern instrument. You'd think they should be if everything that's changed between Fps and Pfs is an 'improvement' but IIRC - I'm no pianist - this isn't actually the case.

Aren't there bits of Beethoven sonatas that physically cannot be played as written on a modern Steinway? (I think I recall something about glissandi in the Waldstein or Appassionata, but can't find a mention in Tovey's Companion...)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Aren't there bits of Beethoven sonatas that physically cannot be played as written on a modern Steinway? (I think I recall something about glissandi in the Waldstein or Appassionata, but can't find a mention in Tovey's Companion...)

That's a fair point. It will be the Waldstein you are thinking of. Those glissandi can cause injury on a modern piano.

I used the word "improvement" carefully, trying not to imply it was a indisputable fact.

[EdgeleyRob]

What an interesting thread.
The knowledge on here is staggering.
The thing is,musical numpty that I am,I just can't listen to fortepianos and harpsichords,it has to be a modern grand piano.
I suppose that's me in the doghouse again!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

What we think of as a Grand Piano came into existence at the end of the 19th & beginning of the 20th Centuries to facilitate the larger concert halls in which they were expected to be played, often in Concertos with huge orchestral "competition". Its improvements are largely to do with louder dynamic possibilities, and (if this is understood as an "improvement") greater homogeneity of sound in all registers.

Some of the losses were: an effective una corda pedal (taking away the very clear changes in timbre in such passages as the recit before the "Sorrowful Song" of Op 110); the ability to "balance" with stringed instruments in Chamber Music; the ability to glissando easily and safely; the different colours of the different registers; - and (and this comes back to Bbm's OP) the distinctive sound of the early pianos; gentler, more intimate, more like a guitar or a harp, but with a richer range of colours. More appropriately, in fact, called "Piano" than the modern version, which is very definitely a Forte!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The thing is,musical numpty that I am,I just can't listen to fortepianos and harpsichords,it has to be a modern grand piano.
I suppose that's me in the doghouse again!

Not at all, Edgey: plenty of great recordings on the modern Joanna if you don't like the sound of the instruments that were around at the time the composers wrote the works. Guilt-free enjoyment in an oft-shitty world is to be seized with alacrity.

Or even several lacrities.

[Tony Halstead]

What we think of as a Grand Piano came into existence at the end of the 19th & beginning of the 20th Centuries to facilitate the larger concert halls in which they were expected to be played, often in Concertos with huge orchestral "competition". Its improvements are largely to do with louder dynamic possibilities, and (if this is understood as an "improvement") greater homogeneity of sound in all registers.

Some of the losses were: an effective una corda pedal (taking away the very clear changes in timbre in such passages as the recit before the "Sorrowful Song" of Op 110); the ability to "balance" with stringed instruments in Chamber Music; the ability to glissando easily and safely; the different colours of the different registers; - and (and this comes back to Bbm's OP) the distinctive sound of the early pianos; gentler, more intimate, more like a guitar or a harp, but with a richer range of colours. More appropriately, in fact, called "Piano" than the modern version, which is very definitely a Forte!

This is a totally superb posting, ferneyhoughgeliebte.
Many thanks!

[EdgeleyRob]

Not at all, Edgey: plenty of great recordings on the modern Joanna if you don't like the sound of the instruments that were around at the time the composers wrote the works. Guilt-free enjoyment in an oft-shitty world is to be seized with alacrity.

Or even several lacrities.

Phew,that's a relief

This is a totally superb posting, ferneyhoughgeliebte.
Many thanks!

Agreed,like I said,staggering knowledge.
We are so fortunate to have the likes of fhg and so many others on this wonderful forum.

[ardcarp]

Some of the losses were..... the ability to "balance" with stringed instruments in Chamber Music

Congrats on an excellent post, Ferney, but I do take issue...slightly....with the above. Agreed, the modern grand doesn't always blend in chamber music or with soloists, BUT this is the fault of players. The modern instrument is in fact capable of being played very, very quietly indeed and (as I understand it) hammers are 'voiced' so that with gentle playing they will elicit a more mellow and less brassy sound. Nothing annoys me more than the all-too-frequent concert where the pianist has the lid fully open and thunders away regardless of the flute/violin/voice he is accompanying. Not always of course, but surprisingly frequently. One notable experience was of a very well-known Russian pianist (usually a soloist) accompanying a cellist; and quite honestly the cellist might as well have stayed at home.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Congrats on an excellent post, Ferney, but I do take issue...slightly....with the above. Agreed, the modern grand doesn't always blend in chamber music or with soloists, BUT this is the fault of players. The modern instrument is in fact capable of being played very, very quietly indeed and (as I understand it) hammers are 'voiced' so that with gentle playing they will elicit a more mellow and less brassy sound. Nothing annoys me more than the all-too-frequent concert where the pianist has the lid fully open and thunders away regardless of the flute/violin/voice he is accompanying. Not always of course, but surprisingly frequently. One notable experience was of a very well-known Russian pianist (usually a soloist) accompanying a cellist; and quite honestly the cellist might as well have stayed at home.

Yes - "ability" is too raw a comment: it's "easier" for the Fortepiano to balance in Chamber Ensembles, but sensitive performers on modern instruments can manage marvellously well.

Your mentioning a 'cellist reminds me of the story of Brahms accompanying a less-than-accomplished 'cellist in one of his own Sonatas. Brahms played louder and louder as the piece went on until the 'cellist cried out "But I can't hear myself!"
"You're lucky," growled Brahms, "I can!"

[verismissimo]

Your mentioning a 'cellist reminds me of the story of Brahms accompanying a less-than-accomplished 'cellist in one of his own Sonatas. Brahms played louder and louder as the piece went on until the 'cellist cried out "But I can't hear myself!"
"You're lucky," growled Brahms, "I can!"

Nice story, ferney.

[aeolium]

The modern instrument is in fact capable of being played very, very quietly indeed and (as I understand it) hammers are 'voiced' so that with gentle playing they will elicit a more mellow and less brassy sound.

I agree, ardcarp. Among some wonderful pianists in chamber music using modern instruments I would mention Lamar Crowson who participated in some fine recordings for the Melos Ensemble (and can be heard on the ICON box set mentioned in the Bargains thread) and Radu Lupu whose accompaniment of Szymon Goldberg in the Mozart and Schubert violin sonatas is imo exquisite.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Not at all, Edgey: plenty of great recordings on the modern Joanna if you don't like the sound of the instruments that were around at the time the composers wrote the works. Guilt-free enjoyment in an oft-shitty world is to be seized with alacrity.

Or even several lacrities.

Have you ever worked in the Diplomatic Service, Ferney?

[ardcarp]

Among some wonderful pianists in chamber music using modern instruments I would mention Lamar Crowson who participated in some fine recordings for the Melos Ensemble (and can be heard on the ICON box set mentioned in the Bargains thread) and Radu Lupu whose accompaniment of Szymon Goldberg in the Mozart and Schubert violin sonatas is imo exquisite.

..and chamber music apart, I admire Murray Perahia and Angela Hewitt for their exploiting the quieter and more delicate possibilities of the modern grand. All too rare, it seems.

[BBMmk2]

I much prefer Murray Perahia, than Angela hewitt. I bought her 2nd recording of JSB's '48, and i did'nt like the way she clipped some mof the notes she nplayed there. perhaps a rather small moan, here, but when they were deployed by her, it spoilt the otherwise, rather good performance.

[ardcarp]

BBM. I love Hewitt's Goldberg. I've heard her live (several times) playing Bach, and she casts a most uncanny spell over the audience. Schiff is a pretty neat Bach player too.