Fortepianos and Modern Grand Pianos

[DublinJimbo]

... try, for instance ...

Yes indeed. That's a splendid example. I was very unsure until I heard it, but Daniel Grimwood won me over completely.

Also (and I've mentioned it here a number of times previously), there's the wonderful Kristian Bezuidenhout, whose recordings of concertos by Mendelssohn and Mozart with the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra are tremendous accomplishments which would be my first choices as material to persuade fortepiano doubters.

[visualnickmos]

This is very interesting, but I wonder if anyone can answer something I find a bit of a mystery; what in very basic terms in one paragraph, is the difference between a pianoforte and a fortepiano? Call me dumb - maybe I am.

[aeolium]

The problem for me, however - perhaps not quite so much with, say, Mendelssohn but certainly with Schumann and even more with Chopin and Liszt and perhaps more still with Alkan - is that the demands that some of these composers' works made on keyboard instruments and players seem so often to suggest a need for and aspirations toward a new kind of instrument. The harmonic developments in Chopin, particularly in the works of his final period, can imply the need for greater sustaining power than hitherto, the rise of the public concert suggested the requirement for instruments with greater powers of projection, the extremes of bravura in Liszt and Alkan suggest the need for a more robust design of instrument and a wider pitch range Alkan's not infrequent recourse to dense bass sonorities (not to mention even Beethoven's in some of his late works) call for the kind of tonal clarity unavailable on most of the instruments of the day.

Yes, and while I agree with the comment that Beethoven would have composed differently for a modern instrument, I get the sense that in at least some of his piano compositions he was not seeking to exploit the capabilities of the contemporary keyboard instrument as much as striving to express something that went beyond its capabilities. We know of his dissatisfaction with the instrument from the comment near the end of his life "It is and remains an inadequate instrument" and his expressed determination not to compose anything further for it. And there was Czerny's remark about Beethoven's performance of his own piano works: "Extraordinary as his playing was when he improvised, it was frequently less successful when he played his printed compositions, for, as he never had patience or time to practise, the result would generally depend on accident of his mood; and as his playing, like his compositions, were far ahead of his time, the pianofortes of the period (until 1810), still extremely weak and imperfect, could not endure his gigantic style of performance."

We also know that Beethoven's own performances of keyboard works of Baroque and classical composers were not "historically informed": he performed on instruments of his own time. Czerny again: "His playing of the scores of Handel and Gluck and the fugues of Seb. Bach was unique, in that in the former he introduced a full-voicedness and a spirit which gave these works a new shape." Of course Beethoven would have been aware that these works had been composed for entirely different keyboard instruments but he presumably believed that their musical value transcended the constraints of particular instruments. He would have been surprised to have been told that he was playing "arrangements". Are not pianists today who play Beethoven on modern instruments being consistent with that philosophy?

The technology of the keyboard instruments changed greatly during Beethoven's lifetime. I like to imagine the aging Beethoven, the author of that quote about the inadequacy of the piano as an instrument, sitting down to play one of his earliest piano works. Would he have sought out one of those pianofortes from the 1790s - or would he have played on the most modern instrument available to him? I think the answer is pretty clear.

It's also curious that historical performance practice has not significantly penetrated the area of the performance of Beethoven's piano works even though in other areas - Baroque performance, even the performance of Haydn and Mozart orchestral works - HIPP has become the dominant performance style. Even though there are distinguished HIPP performers of Beethoven's works, such as Brautigam, Binns and Staier, by far the majority of performances and recordings of Beethoven's piano works are still on modern instruments. If the advantages of playing on fortepianos and early pianofortes were so incontrovertible how is it that so many famous pianists - Ashkenazy, Barenboim, Pollini, Brendel, Lewis, Schiff to name a few - play the works on modern instruments? Is it just professional laziness or are these pianists dissatisfied with the results of period performance Beethoven? In some cases - Schiff and Melvyn Tan - pianists have made recordings of Beethoven on period instruments but now play predominantly on modern instruments.

[ardcarp]

I wonder if anyone can answer something I find a bit of a mystery; what in very basic terms in one paragraph, is the difference between a pianoforte and a fortepiano?

I'm not sure there is a precise definition. My Oxford Companion to Muxic says:

"a term sometimes used to distinguish the 18th- and early 19th-century piano from the modern instrument"

Just adding to that (from a deep pool of ignorance) 'modern' pianos have very robust construction with iron frames and higher string-tensions, whereas 'fortepianos' tended to be more delicate and harpsichord-shaped.

Sorry, not quite one paragraph!

Maybe an expert could chip in here?

[visualnickmos]

Thank you ardcarp

I'm not sure there is a precise definition. My Oxford Companion to Muxic says:

"a term sometimes used to distinguish the 18th- and early 19th-century piano from the modern instrument"

Just adding to that (from a deep pool of ignorance) 'modern' pianos have very robust construction with iron frames and higher string-tensions, whereas 'fortepianos' tended to be more delicate and harpsichord-shaped.

Sorry, not quite one paragraph!

Maybe an expert could chip in here?

That sounds like a pretty good answer to me! I imagined it was probably just whichever word sounded best! Often the way when dealing with historical terminology...... but let's see if an expert chips in with more info.....

[Dave2002]

Why, did Prokofiev write them with the intention of their being played on a fortepiano?

In the current context that's quite an interesting question!

[Tony Halstead]

Even more confusing: the 'English Grand Pianoforte' first made in London in 1772 by Americus Backers and continued by e.g. John Broadwood was never called a 'fortepiano' but a 'pianoforte'!

[ardcarp]

aeolium's post #33 deals with performance practice as much as with the instruments...the two are linked to some extent of course. Kenneth Hamilton's fine book, After the Golden Age, reveals some remarkable differences in the approach of Liszt and his approx contemporaries to playing in public. Strict adherence to the letter of the score was not so important, and it was quite common to tack on an improvisation before and//or after the main piece. It really was a case of a different mind-set. Among the earliest recordings we have are those of Paderewski, and even his style of playing would hardly be considered kosher by modern players. So, as in all things, fashions change; and we (with all out HIPPery) have a certain arrogance in thinking that the way we do stuff now is 'right' or 'better'.

[Tony Halstead]

We ( or at least some of us) don't actually think

that the way we do stuff now is 'right' or 'better'.

but simply that using the instruments - or replicas thereof - that e.g. Haydn, Mozart, C.P.E and J.C. Bach heard and composed for specifically must surely be a good starting point in understanding their music.

[ardcarp]

waldhorn

I did not mean to slam the HIPP movement! And I agree entirely about the revelatory aspects of hearing performance on original or reconstructed instruments. I was thinking more of how a modern audience might react if we 're-composed while we played' as Beethoven might have done with Bach or Liszt might have done with Mozart. That is an aspect of 'authenticity' yet to be explored, I guess.

[Dave2002]

waldhorn

I did not mean to slam the HIPP movement! And I agree entirely about the revelatory aspects of hearing performance on original or reconstructed instruments. I was thinking more of how a modern audience might react if we 're-composed while we played' as Beethoven might have done with Bach or Liszt might have done with Mozart. That is an aspect of 'authenticity' yet to be explored, I guess.

Red Priest seem already to be tackling that kind of authenticity, with music of a slghtly earlier period. Is it really authentic? Who knows, or cares? Fun, though! Dull it isn't.

[ardcarp]

Concerning performance practice and going a bit off topic, as usual, here's an account of Bruckner's organ recital in the RAH in 1871.

He began with Bach's Toccata in F major and followed it with an improvisation on the piece [....] Then came a Handel fugue followed by an improvisation on an original theme and one on Bach's Fugue in E [flat....the St Anne?]

[BBMmk2]

Bryn, those recordings, you mentioned, I could'nt see what the label was?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Bryn, those recordings, you mentioned, I could'nt see what the label was?

The Martynov discs are on the "OUT THERE" label:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Erard-piano-Yury-Martynov/dp/B009ZWHJRG/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1371999316&sr=1-1&keywords=yury+martynov

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Symphonies-transcriptions-Franz-Liszt/dp/B006M51FME/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1371999316&sr=1-3&keywords=yury+martynov

The Chopin boxed set is on BRILLIANT Classics (so won't be very expensive)

Daniel Grimwood's complete Annees de Pelerinage is on two SFZ MUSIC CDs at around £21:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Liszt-Daniel-Grimwood-Erard-piano/dp/B001O3MLN6/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1371999586&sr=1-8&keywords=liszt+annees+de+pelerinage

[ahinton]

Yes, and while I agree with the comment that Beethoven would have composed differently for a modern instrument, I get the sense that in at least some of his piano compositions he was not seeking to exploit the capabilities of the contemporary keyboard instrument as much as striving to express something that went beyond its capabilities. We know of his dissatisfaction with the instrument from the comment near the end of his life "It is and remains an inadequate instrument" and his expressed determination not to compose anything further for it. And there was Czerny's remark about Beethoven's performance of his own piano works: "Extraordinary as his playing was when he improvised, it was frequently less successful when he played his printed compositions, for, as he never had patience or time to practise, the result would generally depend on accident of his mood; and as his playing, like his compositions, were far ahead of his time, the pianofortes of the period (until 1810), still extremely weak and imperfect, could not endure his gigantic style of performance."

We also know that Beethoven's own performances of keyboard works of Baroque and classical composers were not "historically informed": he performed on instruments of his own time. Czerny again: "His playing of the scores of Handel and Gluck and the fugues of Seb. Bach was unique, in that in the former he introduced a full-voicedness and a spirit which gave these works a new shape." Of course Beethoven would have been aware that these works had been composed for entirely different keyboard instruments but he presumably believed that their musical value transcended the constraints of particular instruments. He would have been surprised to have been told that he was playing "arrangements". Are not pianists today who play Beethoven on modern instruments being consistent with that philosophy?

The technology of the keyboard instruments changed greatly during Beethoven's lifetime. I like to imagine the aging Beethoven, the author of that quote about the inadequacy of the piano as an instrument, sitting down to play one of his earliest piano works. Would he have sought out one of those pianofortes from the 1790s - or would he have played on the most modern instrument available to him? I think the answer is pretty clear.

It's also curious that historical performance practice has not significantly penetrated the area of the performance of Beethoven's piano works even though in other areas - Baroque performance, even the performance of Haydn and Mozart orchestral works - HIPP has become the dominant performance style. Even though there are distinguished HIPP performers of Beethoven's works, such as Brautigam, Binns and Staier, by far the majority of performances and recordings of Beethoven's piano works are still on modern instruments. If the advantages of playing on fortepianos and early pianofortes were so incontrovertible how is it that so many famous pianists - Ashkenazy, Barenboim, Pollini, Brendel, Lewis, Schiff to name a few - play the works on modern instruments? Is it just professional laziness or are these pianists dissatisfied with the results of period performance Beethoven? In some cases - Schiff and Melvyn Tan - pianists have made recordings of Beethoven on period instruments but now play predominantly on modern instruments.

All very much to the point, I think; many thanks for this!