Symphonies with organ

[verismissimo]

Many thanks to you and other for the PMs and good wishes

Yes... welcome back, Roehre.

[verismissimo]

They are currently playing "Strauss Symphony No 64 Alpine" on Sky Arts 2, according to the subtitle. Catch it while you can.

[EdgeleyRob]

That little exchange of posts between Roehre and Jayne,just one of many things that make this forum so great.
Absolutely fascinating stuff,thank you.

[jayne lee wilson]

Stravinsky neatly encapsulates the problem. Ask "what is a symphony?", and we have two broadly based on classical models - Symphony in C and the Symphony in 3 Movements; the Symphonies of Wind Instruments - using the term "symphony" in its original meaning, "sounding together"; and the Symphony of Psalms, whose static, hieratical character seems at odds with anything organic or developmental, but which would seem somehow diminished (and possibly played less often) if he'd called it Three Psalms, or Psalm-Suite.

So perhaps "Symphony" is as all-embracingly powerful, meaningful - and meaningless - as the term "Art"...

[LeMartinPecheur]

Eminem has just produced his Symphony in H. Doubt if it will feature an organ though. Or an orchestra?

Symphony in H? Probably just me but I'd never realised Eminem is German...

[Pabmusic]

...If we are unable to emulate the 19th century musicologists in ticking boxes what defines a symphony, then I do think that the only way out of this "mess" is the way I tried to define the form, a work is a symphony as soon as the composer says it is one.

With JLW I do feel that there is a kind of autosuggestion involved too, an inner voice which tells us whether a real symphonic architecture or process is going on below the surface, and thus identifying works which are "symphonies" in all but name...

Yes indeed. The word 'symphony' is not an absolute, but is part of a more-or-less continuous spectrum. For anything from the nineteenth century onwards, the first (and usually most obvious) clue we generally have is the label the composer gave it. Before about 1800, there was rather too much overlap between 'overture', 'sinfonia' and 'symphony' for us to be quite as confident, so form becomes more important. But even then there are challenges, particularly if a composer likes playing with form - Dittersdorf, for instance. Even Mozart was conscious of this, because he called the original, six-movement, version of the Haffner a 'symphony-serenade'. This raises the obvious point as well that 'symphony' probably never meant the same thing to any two composers - especially as the 19th century progressed.

Then there are works that amount to symphonies (or 'almost-symphonies') even though the composer didn't call them that. Das Lied von der Erde is one example, or Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, or Elgar's Falstaff (although there the composer did call it a 'symphonic study in C minor'). Elgar's The Black Knight, too, clearly follows the pattern of an orchestral symphony while remaining wholly choral. However, Elgar refrained from calling it a symphony - although RVW had no such compunction with his choral A Sea Symphony, which is arguably less symphonic.

There are works that have the scale but don't amount to symphonies, though much of this can only be opinion. I find it difficult to hear Tapiola as a symphony (its composer didn't call it one, of course) but I have no problem with Sibeius's 7th which is about the same length. I can't really see the Rite of Spring as symphonic, despite some superficial traits. As for someone like Delius - is Appalachia truly 'symphonic' (I've heard this argued) ...?

Then there are cases where we might not agree with the composer's view that a piece amounts to a symphony. In general, I don't think it is for others to take the snobbish view that "it's not a real symphony" - and not only because it's not easy to say what amount to a real symphony. If a composer in good faith uses the label 'symphony', we should accept it and try to understand why that label has been used. Even if we don't think it justified, the composer did.

[teamsaint]

here you go, Organ symphony fans.......

[visualnickmos]

The Manfred Symphony by Tchaikovsky. The Organ comes in towards the very end...

...unless one happens to be listening to Yuri Ahronovitch's LSO recording where the organ is nowhere to be heard, despite the 'organist' being credited on the sleeve! Utterly disappointing - it's a pretty solid performance up until that point....

[EdgeleyRob]

here you go, Organ symphony fans.......

Thanks ts,enjoyed that

[BBMmk2]

I have actually played (trombone) in Alexandre Guilmant's Symphonie No. 1 in D minor for organ and orchestra, Op. 42 (1874)

Pretty obscure, Koussevitsky used to programme it apparently... latterly recorded for Chandos by the BBC Phil under Y-P Tortelier... http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000000AUI

Perhaps one of those pieces it's more fun to play than to listen to

The slow movement's amiable enough: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO5UlJ9O-ZQ

I had to manufacture the tuba part from the double basses, as they were rather short. I think we did no.3.

I do rather like Samuel Barber's Toccata Festiva, though.

[DracoM]

Anyone played Rautavaara's 'Annunciations' for organ and brass ensemble and 'Symphonic Wind Orchestra' which dates from 1976?
I have ti on Cd, but wanted to know how playable it was, not being an organist myself.

[maestro267]

Now I've sifted through the pages of this thread, and where it got bogged down in the debate of what is(n't) a symphony, I got lost. So I'll just list a few symphonies I'm aware of which call for organ, and apologise if there are any repeats of anything already mentioned above.

Arnold Bax 2, 4

Havergal Brian 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9 & 14

Josef Bohuslav Foerster 4 ("Easter Eve")

George Lloyd 7 (brief appearance at finale's climax, but what a moment!)

Khachaturian 3 (also includes 15 trumpets)

[Alain Maréchal]

I never miss an opportunity to mention Sinfonia Concertante by Jongen. Both the title and the work itself sound like a symphony to me.
A tardy mention that my favourite recording is conducted by the late Georges Pretre.

[ahinton]

I think that this topic merits being divided into consideration of orchestral symphonies that include an organ part that uses the instrument in a way and to an extent broadly equivalent to the use of piano as a percussion instrument in certain orchestral scores and those that actually feature it; in piano terms, one might think of the the piano's rôle in Messiaen's Turangalîla-Symphonie or Sorabji's First Symphony which is pretty much that of solo instrument throughout as distinct from its treatment in, say, Lutosławski's Third Symphony. Even in Saint-Saëns' Third Symphony, the rôle of the organ, though crucial, is very much that of "one of the orchestral instruments" rather than a concertante one.

[Alain Maréchal]

Even in Saint-Saëns' Third Symphony, the rôle of the organ, though crucial, is very much that of "one of the orchestral instruments" rather than a concertante one.

An eminent organist of my acquaintance wondered why orchestras engage an eminent organist for what is not a very difficult organ part. He is always pleased to take the fee, and has recorded it.