Conductors - What Effect Does All That Arm-waving Have?

[MrGongGong]

When I conducted the Philharmonia (yes, really ) it became very obvious , very quickly that they had a real sense of "where they were going" and if I was a bit vague they would steer the ship without me ! What is so different with an orchestra like that is that providing a beat or even bringing them in isn't always necessary (unlike your average Youth Orchestra) as they are more than capable of doing that without intervention. In the hands of an expert (which I'm certainly NOT even though I did write the piece they were playing) an orchestra at that level can be a tremendous beast , for a sometime conductor like myself you can do "ready, steady , GO" and then wave your arms about while the music plays ! Though I know which one I would choose....... last time I was asked to conduct a well known London Orchestra I declined , even though the experience is totally thrilling and it would be a great journey BUT realised that what the music needed was an expert who knew the band and how they would respond.

[Hornspieler]

AjAjAjH #9
Rehearsal must have a lot to do with it but I once heard Sir Charles Groves say that some of the finest concerts he had conducted were when he had been called in at short notice and conducted with minimal or no rehearsal.

Charles Groves once said that a watchmaker told him "Never take a watch apart if you don't have enough time to put it back together"

Rehearsal does not explain how a conductor with the same orchestra can give different performance of the same work in a matter of days. I once heard Stanislaw Scworokevski conduct Mahler 2 on a Thursday evening and repeat it on the following Sunday AND IT sounded quite different. (of course that could have been me hearing it differently.)

Playing Brahms 1st symphony on a Northern tour, Silvestri took 52 minutes in Hull's City Hall but only 48 minutes in Manchester's Free Trade Hall.
Both performances were absolutely right for the acoustic properties of the two venues.

Petrushka #10
I think it's a fallacy to say that the players never look at the conductor. Even when following the notes they will be perfectly aware of him over the top of their music stands. Perhaps HS can confirm (or deny)

.
Some works are so familiar that they are almost sealed in one's memory. It may be the music itself that one hardly needs to look at but yes, this is where back desks in the strings might struggle to see the conductor - and they are often the ones that most need to be able to see both conductor and music. I have no answer for that problem, but see Slarty's post #15 which follows:.

Slarty #15
One does not have time to look up or look away from the music to see what the conductor is doing. Everyone learns very quickly to position themselves in such a way that the eyes can see the conductor without moving the head, therefore speeding up the movement to and fro to such an extent that the audience think we are not looking.
As for the Barber of Seville Overture, once the conductor has guided the orchestra over the possible bumps during the introduction and starts us off with the allegro, he really can step aside and let us continue alone. BUT now the orchestral musicians have slightly repositioned themselves to keep an eye on the Leader/concertmaster as he/she will take over.

If an occasion arises where a conductor is obviously not able for the task ahead (and it doesn't just happen with some amateurs who have hired the orchestra for their local Messiah performance) the leader/concertmaster will often half raise himself from his chair; look around to capture every eye and give an exagerrated downbow movement ("WATCH MY BOW AND MY LEFT SHOULDER") The orchestra usually get the message and "follow their leader".

I have a question for our musical historians:

Who was it who devised the up/down/sideways baton movements which define the beats of the bar with different time signatures?

Now almost universally adopted by all our stick wavers in schools, concert halls and orchestra pits. Someone deserves the credit for such a simple but effective method of beating time.

HS

- and BTW: where on earth is the noble waldhorn? I am sure we would all welcome some input from him.

[duncan]

When I conducted the Philharmonia (yes, really ) it became very obvious , very quickly that they had a real sense of "where they were going" and if I was a bit vague they would steer the ship without me ! What is so different with an orchestra like that is that providing a beat or even bringing them in isn't always necessary (unlike your average Youth Orchestra) as they are more than capable of doing that without intervention. In the hands of an expert (which I'm certainly NOT even though I did write the piece they were playing) an orchestra at that level can be a tremendous beast , for a sometime conductor like myself you can do "ready, steady , GO" and then wave your arms about while the music plays !

If an occasion arises where a conductor is obviously not able for the task ahead (and it doesn't just happen with some amateurs who have hired the orchestra for their local Messiah performance) the leader/concertmaster will often half raise himself from his chair; look around to capture every eye and give an exagerrated downbow movement ("WATCH MY BOW AND MY LEFT SHOULDER") The orchestra usually get the message and "follow their leader".

That's interesting and not surprising to this lay-person. I once went to a Philharmonia concert 'conducted' by a well-known character who normally stands in front of his pick-up band - whose initials do not stand for Low Frequency Oscillation - in classical spectaculars or charidee concerts. This was one of the latter, I was there as my other half was in the chorus for part two. Part one was The Rite of Spring. It became quickly evident the chap doing the arm-waving was not having much influence on what was being played and the band were all watching the leader. Especially as he appeared to get lost on a number of occasions (much frantic page turning back and forward). It was a decent performance of course and quite impressive to see what the Philharmonia could achieve without assistance from the podium.

I'd like to see more performances authentically lead by the first violinist. I suppose though it’s deemed necessary to have a celebrity figure to sell media, help raise money for the new hall, charm the patrons, remember the names of 110 players, and shag the soprano.

[Thropplenoggin]

I have a question for our musical historians:

Who was it who devised the up/down/sideways baton movements which define the beats of the bar with different time signatures?

Now almost universally adopted by all our stick wavers in schools, concert halls and orchestra pits. Someone deserves the credit for such a simple but effective method of beating time.

Wikipedia has some interesting diagrams showing these gestures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conducting

[MrGongGong]

I have a question for our musical historians:

Who was it who devised the up/down/sideways baton movements which define the beats of the bar with different time signatures?

Maybe someone could tell a certain mr Gurgiev ?
(though he is a genius when on form so i'd let it lie )

[amateur51]

I'd like to see more performances authentically lead by the first violinist. I suppose though it’s deemed necessary to have a celebrity figure to sell media, help raise money for the new hall, charm the patrons, remember the names of 110 players, and shag the soprano.

What an odd name for a soprano

[slarty]

To come back to the original point of "what does all the arm waving......".
Well, I could demonstrate with three separate live broadcasts of one orchestra with three different conductors.All broadcasts are within a 6 month period,and nos 2 & 3 are within a few weeks,so the orchestra members are more or less the same. All broadcasts are stereo, clear and complete.

Conductor nr 1 - the orchestra sounds very classy - smooth - good ensemble - wonderful sound - one can tell they are happy with him.
Conductor nr 2 - the orchestra are again on top form - now very much more dynamic -but still with great ensemble - obviously a good rapport with the conductor.
Conductor nr 3 - this sounds like a third rate pick up band - music is stodgy and lumpy poor ensemble and very bad tuning - they could not care less. Obviously - a problem somewhere.

Conductor 1 - December 1977 - Covent Garden Lohengrin - Bernard Haitink (the future music director)
Conductor 2 - May 1978 - Covent Garden Tristan und Isolde - Colin Davis (the then present music director)
Conductor 3 - june 1978 - Luisa Miller - Lorin Maazel (they hated him)

So, it makes a tremendous difference who stands on the podium.
Slarty

[Tony Halstead]

Charles Groves once said that a watchmaker told him "Never take a watch apart if you don't have enough time to put it back together"

Playing Brahms 1st symphony on a Northern tour, Silvestri took 52 minutes in Hull's City Hall but only 48 minutes in Manchester's Free Trade Hall.
Both performances were absolutely right for the acoustic properties of the two venues.


.
Some works are so familiar that they are almost sealed in one's memory. It may be the music itself that one hardly needs to look at but yes, this is where back desks in the strings might struggle to see the conductor - and they are often the ones that most need to be able to see both conductor and music. I have no answer for that problem, but see Slarty's post #15 which follows:.

If an occasion arises where a conductor is obviously not able for the task ahead (and it doesn't just happen with some amateurs who have hired the orchestra for their local Messiah performance) the leader/concertmaster will often half raise himself from his chair; look around to capture every eye and give an exagerrated downbow movement ("WATCH MY BOW AND MY LEFT SHOULDER") The orchestra usually get the message and "follow their leader".

I have a question for our musical historians:

Who was it who devised the up/down/sideways baton movements which define the beats of the bar with different time signatures?

Now almost universally adopted by all our stick wavers in schools, concert halls and orchestra pits. Someone deserves the credit for such a simple but effective method of beating time.

HS

- and BTW: where on earth is the noble waldhorn? I am sure we would all welcome some input from him.

I've been away in the depths of Shropshire all week, having a lovely time!
As to gazing at conductors...as others have rightly pointed out, you can do that only with your peripheral vision, and furthermore, only if you know the piece so well that your eyes aren't glued to the music.
What does bother me a lot is a conductor whose head is down and buried in the score most of the time.
I'm not saying that conductors should always conduct from memory ( it can be disastrous) but surely if they know the piece well enough to have a 'vision' or 'interpretation' of it , the score should be merely an occasional 'prompt sheet'.

[Hornspieler]

To come back to the original point of "what does all the arm waving......".
Well, I could demonstrate with three separate live broadcasts of one orchestra with three different conductors.All broadcasts are within a 6 month period,and nos 2 & 3 are within a few weeks,so the orchestra members are more or less the same. All broadcasts are stereo, clear and complete.

Conductor nr 1 - the orchestra sounds very classy - smooth - good ensemble - wonderful sound - one can tell they are happy with him.
Conductor nr 2 - the orchestra are again on top form - now very much more dynamic -but still with great ensemble - obviously a good rapport with the conductor.
Conductor nr 3 - this sounds like a third rate pick up band - music is stodgy and lumpy poor ensemble and very bad tuning - they could not care less. Obviously - a problem somewhere.

Conductor 1 - December 1977 - Covent Garden Lohengrin - Bernard Haitink (the future music director)
Conductor 2 - May 1978 - Covent Garden Tristan und Isolde - Colin Davis (the then present music director)
Conductor 3 - june 1978 - Luisa Miller - Lorin Maazel (they hated him)

So, it makes a tremendous difference who stands on the podium.
Slarty

So is this the answer to the original question?

I'm not quite sure, slarty. But you have given us a good example.

Another quote:

Modesty is not a virtue in a conductor. He must be totally self-confident or he will fail to
impose his wishes on the players. He must be an extrovert, or he will fail to capture the
attention of the audience. As far as the players are concerned, he doesn't have to be pleasant,
or considerate, or to possess a sense of humour. He simply has to be good!.

Yes. I wrote that, a long time ago. Nothing has happened since to change my opinion.

HS

EDIT: Since posting this, I see that Waldhorn is back. Total agreement on my part.



HS

[MrGongGong]

and the old one about a bull and an orchestra ?

[amateur51]

So is this the answer to the original question?

I'm not quite sure, slarty. But you have given us a good example.

Another quote:



Yes. I wrote that, a long time ago. Nothing has happened since to change my opinion.

HS

Going back to the point that it is at the rehearsal that the 'heavy lifting' (quaint phrase ) is done, I've grown to understand that there are conductors who impose their vision through fear (Solti; Reiner;Szell); through persuasion (Barbirolli certainly); by treating the orchestra as gifted children (Beecham); by being one-of-the-lads but top dog (Tod Handley, Previn). I'm sure that there are other categories/styles of motivation.

My impression is that the day of the screamers is past. Am I right? And what is your view/experience of what has replaced them?

[MrGongGong]

What's a "rehearsal period " ?
The problem with many of the UK ensembles is that the time one gets for rehearsal is so limited that it's hard to do much more than get a reasonable stab at a new piece.
What often amazes me about some of the UK orchestras is their ability to play wonderfully with so little time for preparation.

[amateur51]

What's a "rehearsal period " ?
The problem with many of the UK ensembles is that the time one gets for rehearsal is so limited that it's hard to do much more than get a reasonable stab at a new piece.
What often amazes me about some of the UK orchestras is their ability to play wonderfully with so little time for preparation.

In his one & only Proms Last Night Speech, Sir John Pritchard paid a glowing tribute to the BBCSO for just that quality particularly in premieres of contemporary music

Sadly he spoiled it by finishing with "as I'm sure many of you have had to suffer recently" ;sadface:

[Hornspieler]

Going back to the point that it is at the rehearsal that the 'heavy lifting' (quaint phrase ) is done, I've grown to understand that there are conductors who impose their vision through fear (Solti; Reiner;Szell); through persuasion (Barbirolli certainly); by treating the orchestra as gifted children (Beecham); by being one-of-the-lads but top dog (Tod Handley, Previn). I'm sure that there are other categories/styles of motivation.

My impression is that the day of the screamers is past. Am I right? And what is your view/experience of what has replaced them?

If a conductor's behaviour in rehearsal is offensive or insulting, he needs to remember that the actual performance is "payback time"
(I disagree about Beecham - he recruited the best players available for his orchestra and, when asked to explain his success replied simply
"I let them play.") As regards the others, most orchestras nowadays are self governing. Visiting conductors have to behave themselves or simply not be asked back, but basically, orchestras are aware that a performance is judged by the audience on what they hear, not what they see, and if a conductor is truly incompetent, he will simply be given another previous conductor's interpretation.


I think that this is a most interesting and informative thread.
I would recommend that those seeking more answers would enjoy watching the programme "Symphony" which is available on the BBC TV iPlayer. An opportunity to see a conductor (Mark Elder) in rehearsal; a very pretty maiden dancing one of Dvorak's Furiants and to learn much about the development of the symphonic form.

HS

[salymap]

HS I would appreciate a link to that programme 'Symphony' with Mark Elder as I couldn't find it.

When and on which channel ?

bestio