Conductors - What Effect Does All That Arm-waving Have?

[Thropplenoggin]

I saw this comment beneath a YouTube video of Bernstein rehearsing Mahler 9 with the VPO:

its interesting what he says about what would happen if he just stood there and beat the time - when you think that most of the players won't even be looking at the conductor when they're playing, I wonder what effect all that arm-waving has, over and above the pre-performance preparations.

Perhaps our ex-orchestral musicians can tell me.

I should add I saw Christoph von Dohnányi conduct the Philharmonia Orchestra last Thursday, and felt that there was a respect 'twixt orchestra and conductor that I hadn't noticed in prior live performances. His gestures were curt, minimal, Kleiber-esque (the antithesis of Dudamel and Bernstein) but he seemed to get a fantastic performance out of them (they were playing Beethoven's Third). I assume he'd prepared them well beforehand.

[salymap]

I think the real work is done at rehearsal and some of the pointing gestures and a straight arm waving at one section, etc is to remind them of what the conductor wanted.

Then the grateful smile or glare, depending on whether they remember what he said.

[Thropplenoggin]

I think the real work is done at rehearsal and some of the pointing gestures and a straight arm waving at one section, etc is to remind them of what the conductor wanted.

Then the grateful smile or glare, depending on whether they remember what he said.

[Richard Tarleton]

I think the real work is done at rehearsal

Then the grateful smile or glare, depending on whether they remember what he said.

In this case, more than a glare

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Compare Colin Davis's early arm waving with what he did later. The gestures were less wild, but the end result was equally fine.

In my experience, eye contact is particularly important.

[Hornspieler]

I think the real work is done at rehearsal and some of the pointing gestures and a straight arm waving at one section, etc is to remind them of what the conductor wanted.

Then the grateful smile or glare, depending on whether they remember what he said.

Salymap is quite right. The conductor has to be a showman in performance. A lot of that pointing and gesturing to various sections of is to draw the attention of the audience to what is about to happen next. Saly is absolitely correct here. Maestro gives his orchestra full instructions as to how he wants a piece played during rehearsals. Then, as my dear friend Frantisec Solc said to me after we played in Brno ...

"I thought the orchestra played very good the symphony and the conductor (Rudolf Schwarz) gived the performance his blessing."

A lot of the conductor's communication with the players is a mental understanding between them - especially when required to bring all the players in together at the commencement of a work. (Mendelsohnn's Overture to A Midsummer Night's Dream is a good example where this understanding is absolutely essential)
It may be the bottom of a downbeat, or a fraction of a second later, but everyone somehow starts together.

Sometimes it is just a nod of the head - but it works. Furtwangler's baton. used to come down in a sort of zigzag. When I asked a member of the Philharmonia how they all managed to start together, he replied "It's quite simple really. We are all agreed that we play on the third notch from the top!"

Another little story which might amuse or might confuse:

"In 1947, Rudolf Schwarz was invited to re-form the then Bournemouth Municipal Orchestra .

Schwarz was a sensitive and very emotional conductor, but nobody could claim that his stick
technique inspired much confidence in the inexperienced newcomer. His 3/4 beat was back
to front somehow. The upbeat went sideways and the downbeat performed a sort of upwards
and sideways loop. In long passages, his hands were often in front of his face, fingers
intertwined and working away. `Knitting' the overture was how one player described it.
The regular players became accustomed to these idiosyncracies. For a new player, it was a
nightmare.

Schwarz moved on to the City of Birmingham Orchestra and his place on the podium was taken by Charles Groves, (later Sir
Charles), who recalled his first concert with a wry smile.

“The National Anthem was no problem,” he said. “A signal to the `roll and batter' department as I ascended the rostrum brought orchestra and audience to their feet and I beat my way through the piece without incident.
The first item on the programme was the Tannhauser Overture by Wagner.
As the audience settled into their seats, I felt an itch at the back of my right ear and raised my hand to scratch it.

The orchestra, still accustomed to the ways of Mr. Schwarz, started to play!”

Good night all,

HS

[mercia]

have you seen this video of Bernstein conducting Haydn 88, where they reprise the last movement and he just stands and watches - well not much more than that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3O3vst-ESY

[Zucchini]

In the early days of the West Eastern Divan Orchestra and in Seville, they played the overture to The Barber of Seville as an encore. Once he'd got them going, Barenboim left the rostrum, leaned against the rail and just left them to it. A very generous and trusting way to let his young charges take the applause.

[AjAjAjH]

Rehearsal must have a lot to do with it but I once heard Sir Charles Groves say that some of the finest concerts he had conducted were when he had been called in at short notice and conducted with minimal or no rehearsal.

Rehearsal does not explain how a conductor with the same orchestra can give different performance of the same work in a matter of days. I once heard Stanislaw Scworokevski conduct Mahler 2 on a Thursday evening and repeat it on the following Sunday AND IT sounded quite different. (of course that could have been me hearing it differently.)

[Petrushka]

I think it's a fallacy to say that the players never look at the conductor. Even when following the notes they will be perfectly aware of him over the top of their music stands. Perhaps HS can confirm (or deny).

[Thropplenoggin]

I think it's a fallacy to say that the players never look at the conductor. Even when following the notes they will be perfectly aware of him over the top of their music stands. Perhaps HS can confirm (or deny).

Don't shoot the messenger.

I've always thought that, too, either peripheral vision or subtle glances that go unperceived by the audience. Awaiting a musician's response (HS, Waldhorn et al)...

[verismissimo]

have you seen this video of Bernstein conducting Haydn 88, where they reprise the last movement and he just stands and watches - well not much more than that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3O3vst-ESY

Thanks so much for posting this, mercia.
Great music. One of the greatest Haydn conductors. And such eloquent eyes in the finale encore.

[Pabmusic]

I think it's a fallacy to say that the players never look at the conductor. Even when following the notes they will be perfectly aware of him over the top of their music stands. Perhaps HS can confirm (or deny).

Absolutely right. You learn to be aware of the conductor even when you're following the music. You also know where your important passages and awkward corners are, so that you are on the lookout for a nudge or a wink from the conductor.

I attended a talk at which Vernon Handley once said that, to hear members of an audience commenting on how much the conductor 'felt' the music (because of the ballet on the podium) is the opposite of what should happen after a successful performance, which is that the audience should talk about how they felt the music. He even, semi-seriously, advocated having a screen behind conductors so that only the players can see them!

[Keraulophone]

In my experience, eye contact is particularly important.

Agreed, and eye-to-eye contact can be more informative than eye-to-stick/hands/arms, especially when the conductor's gestures are bewildering.

I'd be interested to know how much two-way communication existed between the players of the Berlin PO and Karajan conducting (or kneading dough) with his head down and eyes shut, or was that just his way of ensuring that the communication was only one-way? The total trust he placed in his players to do what he had pre-arranged could have obviated the need for visual acknowledgement.

[slarty]

One does not have time to look up or look away from the music to see what the conductor is doing. Everyone learns very quickly to position themselves in such a way that the eyes can see the conductor without moving the head, therefore speeding up the movement to and fro to such an extent that the audience think we are not looking.
As for the Barber of Seville Overture,once the conductor has guided the orchestra over the possible bumps during the introduction and starts us off with the allegro, he really can step aside and let us continue alone. BUT now the orchestral musicians have slightly repositioned themselves to keep an eye on the Leader/concertmaster as he/she will take over.
slarty