Paul Hindemith

[mercia]

well we've had Hindemith every afternoon this week, but I guess that's why you said "virtually ignored"

[teamsaint]

what would actually have been interesting would have been some discussion about his work and the reasons why it seems to have become less well regarded than it once was.

[Serial_Apologist]

what would actually have been interesting would have been some discussion about his work and the reasons why it seems to have become less well regarded than it once was.

Well my guess fwiw would be that Hindemith invented/discovered a new tonal method of harmonic construction, at a time when, apart from neo-classical semi-pastiche appropriations/adaptations from pre-Romantic periods and turns to modal forms, the modernist direction was post-tonal. Nowadays the tonal/atonal question is regarded as outmoded, and Hindemith's music is probably regarded as too self-referential (i.e. developed from within itself and from its founding sources) to be of interest.

[Suffolkcoastal]

Even the handful of works played this week has been little compensation for his poor treatment at the hands of R3 this year. But following the recent patterns I've been monitoring, Hindemith is one of a number of composers who is clearly not in favour with the current regime, and one which they feel just needs a token representation to keep the critics at bay. Hindemith doesn't even look likely to even break the 50 pieces/chunks mark this year, unless there is a continued upsurge for the next couple of weeks.

[rauschwerk]

... Hindemith's music is probably regarded as too self-referential (i.e. developed from within itself and from its founding sources) to be of interest.

Surely it's for the BBC to broadcast it so that listeners can make their own minds up about that.

[Serial_Apologist]

Surely it's for the BBC to broadcast it so that listeners can make their own minds up about that.

Absolutely - I totally agree, rauschwerk.

As someone who developed a non-excluding, as much as knowledge permitted all-encompassing fascination for classical music, particularly in its 20 century manifestations, I can't help but deplore the perpetuation of a major defect in coverage that dates back to times one once hoped were past, when other composers such as Vaughan Williams, Sibelius and Mahler were regarded as "outmoded" or "non-exportable" by broadcasters and shouldn't-be promoters.

[teamsaint]

Surely it's for the BBC to broadcast it so that listeners can make their own minds up about that.

That is very dangerous talk, Rauschy.

The politicians don't like that sort of thing.

[Serial_Apologist]

That is very dangerous talk, Rauschy.

The politicians don't like that sort of thing.

Are you quite sure this is the KEY issue, TS?

[Richard Barrett]

I have a lot of time for Hindemith's early music but from Mathis der Maler onwards I gradually lose interest completely: his orchestration becomes pallid, with the strange exception of the Weber piece, and once he wrote his Craft of Musical Composition textbook his harmony seems always contrived to fit his own theory, rather than in the earlier music where he's making it up as he goes along and continually discovering new possibilities. The key pieces for me are the seven Kammermusik concertos and some of the early operas (Cardillac, Das Nusch-Nuschi and especially Sancta Susanna).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As someone who developed a non-excluding, as much as knowledge permitted all-encompassing fascination for classical music, particularly in its 20 century manifestations, I can't help but deplore the perpetuation of a major defect in coverage that dates back to times one once hoped were past, when other composers such as Vaughan Williams, Sibelius and Mahler were regarded as "outmoded" or "non-exportable" by broadcasters and shouldn't-be promoters.

But ... but ... but ...

RVW, Sibelius and Mahler are no longer so regarded. And when they were "out of fashion", Hindemith's star was at its zenith; if he hasn't kept his position, isn't it more to do with performers just not finding his work very interesting? Britten, Bartok and Stravinsky have never wanted for performers to feature their work - why not Hindemith when, for over thirty years, he was at least quite as frequently featured as they were?

Fwiw, I don't mind the Hindemith I know (the Organ Sonatas, the works for Viola, the orchestral works, the Kammermusik - I was at Leeds when Ian Kemp was professor of Music there) - but it never "sticks" in my mind - I listen when it's performed, fnd it a pleasantly inoffensive way of passing the time, but I've never yet found myself thinking "What I really could do with now is a decent half-hour of Hindemith."

Now, Karl Amadeus Hartmann, by contrast ... bring it on!

[Serial_Apologist]

I have a lot of time for Hindemith's early music but from Mathis der Maler onwards I gradually lose interest completely: his orchestration becomes pallid, with the strange exception of the Weber piece, and once he wrote his Craft of Musical Composition textbook his harmony seems always contrived to fit his own theory, rather than in the earlier music where he's making it up as he goes along and continually discovering new possibilities. The key pieces for me are the seven Kammermusik concertos and some of the early operas (Cardillac, Das Nusch-Nuschi and especially Sancta Susanna).

I agree. Of the early works, the third string quartet of 1922 with its slow polytonal pseudo-fugal first movement, and the expressionistic song cycle "Die Junge Magd" to Trakl poems, contrasting plain almost Satie-like modality with harsh dissonance (not to be confused with "Das Marienleben", which H returned to in '48 to make 1 or 2 "improvements"), are well deserving for re-broadcast; of the later works, the 1951 symphony "Die Harmonie der Welt" blew me away with its power on first hearing, and the slightly earlier clarinet concerto for Benny Goodman (broadcast last week) features an intriguing scherzo in odd metres, showing that jazz interest briefly trumping the mr plod, and a rather beautiful slow movement with drifting almost Delian harmonies. Hindemith could certainly come up with singeable tunes at all stages in his career.

Good to have you back, btw.

[Serial_Apologist]

But ... but ... but ...

RVW, Sibelius and Mahler are no longer so regarded. And when they were "out of fashion", Hindemith's star was at its zenith; if he hasn't kept his position, isn't it more to do with performers just not finding his work very interesting? Britten, Bartok and Stravinsky have never wanted for performers to feature their work - why not Hindemith when, for over thirty years, he was at least quite as frequently featured as they were?

Fwiw, I don't mind the Hindemith I know (the Organ Sonatas, the works for Viola, the orchestral works, the Kammermusik - I was at Leeds when Ian Kemp was professor of Music there) - but it never "sticks" in my mind - I listen when it's performed, fnd it a pleasantly inoffensive way of passing the time, but I've never yet found myself thinking "What I really could do with now is a decent half-hour of Hindemith."

Now, Karl Amadeus Hartmann, by contrast ... bring it on!

Yes you're probably right, ferney. The other thing about Hindemith's style was that he was a melodist who thought in long paragraphs of building, superimposed melody, which placed him outwith the more radical side of early modernism, which tended to think at most in terms of terse, easily manipulable motifs, and, as such, it was understandable that he became more and more concerned about issues of continuity and directionality over disruption and colour. And so it is not surprising to hear his influence mostly taken up by jazz harmonists: Kenny Wheeler is, I'm sure, not the only jazz composer to acknowledge Hindemith's influence: those typical Kennyish call-and-response melodies dovetailing or repeating at the fourth or fifth; harmonies, again with fourths and fifths predominating, especially fourth chords resolving onto fifths, with few thirds to be found.

[Richard Barrett]

the expressionistic song cycle "Die Junge Magd" to Trakl poems

yes!

FG, if you find Hindemith "inoffensive" I would suggest a half hour in the company of Sancta Susanna.

[teamsaint]

pity R3 didn't invite you lot in with a few discs for an hour or two discussion.
But their loss is our gain.

Really very interesting stuff, many thanks.

[amateur51]

pity R3 didn't invite you lot in with a few discs for an hour or two discussion.
But their loss is our gain.

Really very interesting stuff, many thanks.

Now there's an idea for a series of programmes, teams ... in which (an) advocate(s) on behalf of an apparently neglected/underappreciated composer attempt to persuade well-intended listeners of her/his worth through recorded/live examples. There's plenty of weasel-word usage there ('worth') but the lingo can be tightened up/relaxed later.

Words and music breaking down barriers - perfect for radio and very Radio3