Any one in?

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  • Sydney Grew
    Banned
    • Mar 2007
    • 754

    Any one in?


    Schindler in his autobiography relates that van Beethoven intended these bars to be played very slowly. The allegro con brio should start only following the second fermata he contended.

    But Weingartner Liszt and Mendelssohn all strongly disagreed, and insisted that everything should be taken allegro (not surprising in the case of Mendelssohn since he liked his music bland).

    Weingartner, in relation only to the pauses, describes their effect as "terrific, gigantic, powerful, menacing, overwhelming and volcanic - it is like a giant's fist rising from the earth." On the other hand, he writes "Is there even a moderately satisfactory explanation why van Beethoven, instead of specifying so extremely important a change of tempo, should have marked the passage allegro con brio when what he wanted was andante?"

    But I stand with Schindler upon this question. I feel that four knocks coming out of the blue would be most "terrific, gigantic, powerful, menacing, overwhelming and volcanic" - to say nothing of thunderous - if there were at least half a second between them.

    Besides, a good many symphonies of the period were preceded by a slow introduction; it is a traditional thing. Might not van Beethoven have considered the slow tempo in this case to be self-evident? It is much more than just the postman isn't it.

    What do members think?
  • Ferretfancy
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 3487

    #2
    Beethoven, in the form of Dudley Moore, is seated at the piano having several unsuccessful stabs at composing these bars. Mrs Beethoven (?? ) in the form of Peter Cooke, comes in with a cylinder vacuum cleaner and proceeds to vigorously clean the carpet.

    "Da ! Da! Da! Daah! goes Beethoven, Mrs Beethoven says " Lift your feet ! "

    Comment

    • Simon

      #3
      Originally posted by Sydney Grew View Post

      What do members think?
      The gut feeling of this one is that you are right, if one is wanting the greatest dramatic effect. But was he wanting that? It still works as a piece, obviously, if they are all at a tempo.

      But will we ever know? Would it have been self-evident at the time? Even if so, would he not have made it clear in his MS?

      Are there no hints at all in contemporary comments on the performances?

      Comment

      • Padraig
        Full Member
        • Feb 2013
        • 4233

        #4
        I can't imagine those 5 bars being played fast! The pauses and the tied minim prevent any momentum from being set up. Therefore I would hear it as you suggest - a warning, prior to the start of the movement proper.

        I noticed the swipe at Mendelssohn, Mr.Grew. Was that really necessary?

        On further reflection, I think FM could well compete with LvB on brilliant, enigmatic introductions immediately followed by a lively tempo.
        Well, I like Mendelssohn. YOU don't have to listen to all of it.

        Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
        Last edited by Padraig; 17-03-13, 15:52.

        Comment

        • Barbirollians
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 11673

          #5
          I don't find Mendelssohn in the slightest bit bland . If he liked his music bland why was he so important in reviving Bach's great choral works and anyone who thinks they are bland needs treatment !!!!!!!

          Comment

          • jayne lee wilson
            Banned
            • Jul 2011
            • 10711

            #6
            Now Gods, stand up for Mendelssohn!

            Recently played the FM 5th with Litton/Bergen - just gorgeous, and neither bland nor shallow. Later I'll play the Op. 80 Quartet...try telling me THAT isn't a tragic masterpiece.

            I can't imagine LvB 5th's opening ever being, or needing to be, pinned down to a narrow range of tempi. It's such an indestructible and ever-evolving masterpiece it not only can take many approaches, it NEEDS them.

            Anyone else as stunned as I am with JEG's latest ORR account, live at Carnegie? Shock-waves and scorch-marks (and, mirabile dictu, ALL repeats! 3 scherzos, 2 trios, and 3 big bangs).
            And c/w an even greater 7th!

            Comment

            • richardfinegold
              Full Member
              • Sep 2012
              • 7660

              #7
              Originally posted by Ferretfancy View Post
              Beethoven, in the form of Dudley Moore, is seated at the piano having several unsuccessful stabs at composing these bars. Mrs Beethoven (?? ) in the form of Peter Cooke, comes in with a cylinder vacuum cleaner and proceeds to vigorously clean the carpet.

              "Da ! Da! Da! Daah! goes Beethoven, Mrs Beethoven says " Lift your feet ! "
              I thought that was a Monty Python bit, with Eric Idle playing Mrs Beethoven and John Cleese playing Ludwig.

              Comment

              • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                Gone fishin'
                • Sep 2011
                • 30163

                #8
                Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
                I thought that was a Monty Python bit, with Eric Idle playing Mrs Beethoven and John Cleese playing Ludwig.


                Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
                [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                • Oldcrofter
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 226

                  #9
                  Here's the longer version (with Colin Mozart, Michelangelo, Shakespeare etc.)

                  Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

                  Comment

                  • Mr Pee
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 3285

                    #10
                    Dudley Moore:-

                    Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


                    Peter Schickele:-

                    This new upload is something unusual but nonetheless interesting. The selection concerns a performance of the very familiar Symphony No. 5 by Ludwig van Beet...


                    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.

                    Mark Twain.

                    Comment

                    • clive heath

                      #11
                      What I want to hear is

                      "and 2 and one" not a triplet

                      Comment

                      • Roehre

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Sydney Grew View Post
                        (...)What do members think?
                        The tempo is Allegro con brio from the the first beat onwards. Beethoven was very precise where tempo changes are concerned. One only have to lool at the piano sonatas opus 31, where tempo changes within (literally) a couple of bars are precisely marked. Rests obviously the question how long the fermatas have to be taken.

                        Comment

                        • Roehre

                          #13
                          Originally posted by clive heath View Post
                          What I want to hear is

                          "and 2 and one" not a triplet
                          the tendency to play it as a triplet is what Bruno Walter called "the great disaster in music" [sic!] (also applying to a similar case at the beginning of the scherzo of the 9th).

                          Comment

                          • DublinJimbo
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2011
                            • 1222

                            #14
                            Originally posted by clive heath View Post
                            What I want to hear is

                            "and 2 and one" not a triplet
                            Absolutely! Where the triplet approach came from I can't imagine.

                            Comment

                            • aka Calum Da Jazbo
                              Late member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 9173

                              #15
                              Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                              Now Gods, stand up for Mendelssohn!

                              Recently played the FM 5th with Litton/Bergen - just gorgeous, and neither bland nor shallow. Later I'll play the Op. 80 Quartet...try telling me THAT isn't a tragic masterpiece.

                              I can't imagine LvB 5th's opening ever being, or needing to be, pinned down to a narrow range of tempi. It's such an indestructible and ever-evolving masterpiece it not only can take many approaches, it NEEDS them.

                              Anyone else as stunned as I am with JEG's latest ORR account, live at Carnegie? Shock-waves and scorch-marks (and, mirabile dictu, ALL repeats! 3 scherzos, 2 trios, and 3 big bangs).
                              And c/w an even greater 7th!
                              yep!!! thanks for reminding me that i had acquired an mp3 of it
                              According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

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