Cadenzas in Mozart Piano Concertos

[Nick Armstrong]

I've been thinking about the cadenzas for Mozart's piano concertos.

It was set off a few weeks ago when I raved about the Britten cadenza played by Hadland in his new CD of K467 and K482. There was an objection by vinteuil:

... to my ears the Britten cadenza didn't work. The rest of the time (ie the stuff wot Mozart wrote) the pianist lives within the five octaves or so that wd have been available to a pianist of the time - then we reach the cadenza - and suddenly we're swirling away way outside the reach of everything else we've heard so far - totally out of proportion. Like a gothic cathedral with suddenly a Palladian portico glued on.

Then on Saturday I caught Nicholas Kenyon describing Mozart's own cadanza for K459 - he said words to the effect that it uses the full extent of the keyboard, from top note right to the bottom....

Which made me think, in which case why isn't it legitimate for Britten to have used the full range available to him...?

Then in last week's edition of pianist Philippe Cassard's excellent Wednesday morning workshops on piano works on France Musique (podcastable here http://sites.radiofrance.fr/francemu...5005962&arch=1 ), he looks in detail at the cadenzas written and played over the years in K466 - illustrating Hummel, Beethoven, Brahms, Busoni, and then several from players like Magaloff, Badura-Skoda etc. Fascinating range of different approaches.

It made me think - isn't the point of a cadenza for a pianist or composer to make a personal statement about the piece.... does it need to retain the shape and form of something Mozart might have written? I still think Britten's as played by Hadland is excellent.

Anyone got any thoughts about Mozart piano concerto cadenzas? Any favourites?

[rauschwerk]

One that I find thoroughly anachronistic is the thunderous effort by Saint-Saens for K491, as recorded by Solomon (it's not attributed on the Testament reissue, but it was on the LP).

[Bryn]

I prefer pianists to play their own cadenzas in Mozart concertos, though I am happy enough to make do with cadenzas by Beethoven, Mozart et al.

[Sir Velo]

IMO, a lot would depend on whether the context is a live concert performance or a recording for repeated listening.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

IMO, a lot would depend on whether the context is a live concert performance or a recording for repeated listening.

- my thoughts precisely; what might be exciting and effective heard once in a live event might provide diminishing pleasure heard every time one played the recording.

[aeolium]

Yes, I agree with Sir Velo in his msg 4. But where there are no cadenzas by Mozart there's no choice but to have a later one and in concerts I'd be just as happy to hear one by Busoni, Britten or Gulda as more commonly-heard ones such as those by Beethoven (and I like the Busoni K467 one played by Annie Fischer in her recording with Sawallisch and the Philharmonia).

I wonder what Caliban thinks of this cadenza by Schnabel to the C minor concerto K491 His cadenza to K467 in an earlier recording with Sargent and the LSO is also interesting.

[JFLL]

I’m wondering what the HIPP view of cadenzas is? Would a hippista say that if we don’t have a cadenza written by the composer, then it should at least be the sort of thing that would have been played at the time? But that raises an awkward question of whether a modern pastiche would be acceptable. And would a Beethoven cadenza in a Mozart concerto be ‘OK’ hipp-wise?

[Nick Armstrong]

Yes, I agree with Sir Velo in his msg 4. But where there are no cadenzas by Mozart there's no choice but to have a later one and in concerts I'd be just as happy to hear one by Busoni, Britten or Gulda as more commonly-heard ones such as those by Beethoven (and I like the Busoni K467 one played by Annie Fischer in her recording with Sawallisch and the Philharmonia).

I wonder what Caliban thinks of this cadenza by Schnabel to the C minor concerto K491 His cadenza to K467 in an earlier recording with Sargent and the LSO is also interesting.

Thanks! Listening on poor equipment, among office noise, in one ear... not too impressed by the Schnabel...it's is a bit... thick, isn't it?!

I'd forgotten that Claudio A and La Grimaud had fallen out over just this issue, of Mozart PC cadenzas. I see she espoused the Busoni - the one illustrated in the France-Musique by Busoni for K 466 found favour with Cassard - very pianistic - but sounded too florid to me.

Here's a YT clip with a selection of K466 cadenzas, including Georg Solti's, Bruno Walter's and Keith Jarrett's !!! (if the listing is to be believed): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJzuQ2Jc9XY

The Edwin Fischer cadenza was illustrated in the Cassard radio programme - sounds a little perfunctory (he wants to retain the line of the piece, was the comment).

All this puts me in mind of a CD I bought for the cadenzas, a tad off-piste... Mozart's Flute concertos with cadenzas by Kallevi Aho - like the Britten, they put one in mind of the glass pyramid in the centre of the Louvre... reflecting the art of a previous century but in contrasting, modern style. http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Flute-C.../dp/B000AYYTD0 I love it.

[Bryn]

I’m wondering what the HIPP view of cadenzas is? Would a hippista say that if we don’t have a cadenza written by the composer, then it should at least be the sort of thing that would have been played at the time? But that raises an awkward question of whether a modern pastiche would be acceptable. And would a Beethoven cadenza in a Mozart concerto be ‘OK’ hipp-wise?

If the performance is HIPP, then the approach to cadenzas should, by definition, be historically informed in both style and execution, surely. Just been listening to the Arthur Schoonderwoerd CD of K466 and 467. I rather like his cadenzas, though I know others have a lower opinion of them.

[ahinton]

I’m wondering what the HIPP view of cadenzas is? Would a hippista say that if we don’t have a cadenza written by the composer, then it should at least be the sort of thing that would have been played at the time? But that raises an awkward question of whether a modern pastiche would be acceptable. And would a Beethoven cadenza in a Mozart concerto be ‘OK’ hipp-wise?

I'm not sure as to the accepted view as the permissibility or otherwise of cadenzas by other composers being joined at the HIPP, but I have three here by Marc-André Hamelin if anyone's interested (respectively to K271, K453 and K491)...

[Roehre]

If within a HIP-performance, then a cadenza IMO (and Bryn's) should be historically informed both in style and execution. If not, then the cadenza may be used for what it originally is meant to be, a showing off of the soloist, which IMO includes 20/21C techniques, like e.g. Schnittke's cadenzas for Beethoven's violin concerto.

Very stylish and mozartian cadenzas are Henkemans' for all concertos from KV175 onwards for which Mozart's have either never been written down or gone lost and which in Salzburg even were considered to be Mozart's own as one -not to be named, but famous- critic did following a Mozarteum Orchestra concert with Baumgartner conducting and Henkemans as soloist. Zimerman is using Henkemans' (or Henkemans' derived) cadenzas, as Henkemans himself obviously did. Recordings of Henkemans as pianist [Mozart and excellent Debussy, 1950s and early 1960s as he ended his career as soloist in 1969] were released on CBS/Sony in the 1990s.

Btw: Beethoven's for 466 cannot be considered being very mozartian either, can they?

[Nick Armstrong]

If within a HIP-performance, then a cadenza IMO (and Bryn's) a cadenza should be historically informed both in style and execution. If not, then the cadenza may be used for what it originally is meant to be, an showing off of the soloist, which IMO includes 20/21C techniques, like e.g. Schnittke's cadenzas for Beethoven's violin concerto.

I think that's probably right... (though I remember hearing Schittke's go at the Beethoven and found it was a right dog's dinner).

That apart, I suppose I am most interested in the thoughts of the top-flight of composers over the ages (fascinating to hear Brahms's cadenza for K466), rather than performers' cadenzas...

[Sir Velo]

I’m wondering what the HIPP view of cadenzas is? Would a hippista say that if we don’t have a cadenza written by the composer, then it should at least be the sort of thing that would have been played at the time? But that raises an awkward question of whether a modern pastiche would be acceptable. And would a Beethoven cadenza in a Mozart concerto be ‘OK’ hipp-wise?

Of course, the interesting thing to bear in mind is that 18th century performances of works drawn from previous centuries paid little or no attention to historical accuracy.

[amateur51]

I think that's probably right... (though I remember hearing Schittke's go at the Beethoven and found it was a right dog's dinner).

That apart, I suppose I am most interested in the thoughts of the top-flight of composers over the ages (fascinating to hear Brahms's cadenza for K466), rather than performers' cadenzas...

Is this ABennett's follow-up to Kafka's Dick, Caliban

[ahinton]

Whilst I accept that what I'm to write is somewhat off-topic (at least to the extent that it's not about Mozart), it does at least relate to the appropriateness or otherwise of cadenzas and how they should be written. When, some years ago, I was asked to write a cadenza for Medtner's Third Piano Concerto, I did ponder on the justification for it when, had the composer intended one to be included in the score, he'd surely have written it himself; anyway, I did eventually go ahead and do it, albeit with some understandable misgivings but, in the end, the performance for which I'd been asked to write it (which I understand would have been the work's Italian première) got cancelled though, mercifully, I have no evidence that the reason for that cancellation had anything to do with my cadenza...