Too big for home listening

[verismissimo]

I notice that there are several major pieces that may well work fine in the concert hall or opera house, but I find just too big for domestic-scale listening.

Top of mind since the recent BAL on Mahler 6 is the last movement of that work. And most of Mahler 8. Another for me is the last movement of Beethoven 9. Then there are a clutch of the noisiest operas of Richard Strauss - Elektra, Die Frau ohne Schatten and others.

These are all composers whose music I love.

Am I alone in this? Are there others that boarders can't deal with at home?

[umslopogaas]

I had a similar thought about large-scale romantic opera and big symphonic works in general, but if I dont hear these works at home in recording, I'm never going to hear them at all, because it would be too expensive to travel to London or other major centres to hear them live. It is true that what I hear is artificial, in the sense that I couldnt actually pack an orchestra into my living room, and if I could the noise would deafen them and me. In fact in my small living room even a string quartet would probably be too loud in the more energetic bits. So if I play music that is "to scale" I'm stuck with clavichords, solo strings or solo winds. Even a grand piano would be a bit too large.

That said, I do enjoy having a few glasses of wine, then putting on something really LOUD, like a bit of Wagner at full blast, or the closing scene of 'Salome', and turning up the volume. Birgit Nilsson is a big girl and she can really make your ears ring.

[gurnemanz]

I had a similar thought about large-scale romantic opera and big symphonic works in general, but if I dont hear these works at home in recording, I'm never going to hear them at all, because it would be too expensive to travel to London or other major centres to hear them live. It is true that what I hear is artificial, in the sense that I couldnt actually pack an orchestra into my living room, and if I could the noise would deafen them and me. In fact in my small living room even a string quartet would probably be too loud in the more energetic bits. So if I play music that is "to scale" I'm stuck with clavichords, solo strings or solo winds. Even a grand piano would be a bit too large.

That said, I do enjoy having a few glasses of wine, then putting on something really LOUD, like a bit of Wagner at full blast, or the closing scene of 'Salome', and turning up the volume. Birgit Nilsson is a big girl and she can really make your ears ring.

I agree with all of that except that it doesn't stop us spending any spare cash we have on traipsing off to London fairly regularly (eg tonight, perversely, chamber music in a big hall - Vengerov + piano at the Barbican). I do generally prefer chamber music on my sound system, especially late at night, when I never seem to want a big orchestra. One option for big sounds, of course, is to use headphones.

I think any member here with a living room large enough to accommodate a symphony orchestra should come clean and invite us all round.

[umslopogaas]

Ah, Wiltshire, yes I might do the same if I lived there, but here in east Devon London does seem just too far away. What with train tickets, concert tickets, dinner and overnight hotel costs, I imagine it would run to at least a hundred and fifty quid (and that's just for me, if I had a missus it would be double that). You can buy a lot of CDs for that sort of money.

I am reminded of Michael Flanders' quip about hi fi, which goes something like "[These audiophiles] go to enormous lengths to recreate the sound of an orchestra actually playing in their living room. Personally I cant think of anything I'd like less than an orchestra actually playing in my living room ... but they seem to like it."

Take care with headphones. I lived in a small flat with near neighbours for many years, and had to listen to loud stuff on headphones. I suspect that's why I now have tinnitus. Its terribly easy to turn up the volume too loud.

[Ferretfancy]

Ah, Wiltshire, yes I might do the same if I lived there, but here in east Devon London does seem just too far away. What with train tickets, concert tickets, dinner and overnight hotel costs, I imagine it would run to at least a hundred and fifty quid (and that's just for me, if I had a missus it would be double that). You can buy a lot of CDs for that sort of money.

I am reminded of Michael Flanders' quip about hi fi, which goes something like "[These audiophiles] go to enormous lengths to recreate the sound of an orchestra actually playing in their living room. Personally I cant think of anything I'd like less than an orchestra actually playing in my living room ... but they seem to like it."

Take care with headphones. I lived in a small flat with near neighbours for many years, and had to listen to loud stuff on headphones. I suspect that's why I now have tinnitus. Its terribly easy to turn up the volume too loud.

"Hu fiddly dee!
Hi-Fi's the thing for me!
With my tone control at a single touch
I can make Caruso sound like Hutch!
Then, I never did care for music much!
It's the Hi Fidelitee! "

[salymap]

I agree with most of the posts. I used to work in London and got home in about 90 minutes, ifthe trains were on time and running [fog,snow,strikes etc] I had toleave the ROH by about 11pm and sometimes miss a bit but it was live music,opera, ballet.

Now I have tinnitus [probably through headphones too loud] and big works don't agree with me much. I prefer lightly scored or early music and chamber music, which fit into my smallish living room.

I seem okay with opera or ballet on Video, many of which I recorded in the early days of BBC4 when there were some good things.

[Ferretfancy]

salymap

I'm not particularly keen on opera or ballet on video, because I don't like what I watch being controlled by a director and vision mixer. This particularly applies to the restless camerawork that has become the norm at the Proms. That said, one thing I have noticed is that we can accept poorer quality sound if we can see the performers on screen, since their facial emotion carries things forward for us.

I do sympathise with you about the maddening tinnitus. A couple of years ago I developed hyperacusis after a misjudged and costly trial of hearing aids. This takes the form of exaggeration at certain frequencies. After quite a while my hearing has returned to normal, or at least normal for my age, but I'm careful not to listen when I'm fatigued.
The problem was more evident when listening to reproduced music, live concerts were less of a problem.

As for large scale works, I still have a slightly naughty tendency to wind up the volume if the neighbours are out ! One example is the opening of the Simon Rattle recording of Szymanowski's King Roger, which is probably the most devastating sound through my 5 speaker system.

I hope you still enjoy listening for a long time to come, where would we be without it ?

Ferret

[salymap]

Thanks Ferret, Iknow you've had hearing problems too and sympathise. Then there's my dodgy sight where good reading glasses seem impossible for the opticians, although distance is good.

Joys of being an octo, you have that to come,lucky man. best wishes, saly

[Thropplenoggin]

I tend to think such pieces are too big to fail...

[jayne lee wilson]

Beyond the need for vast amounts of amplifier power and speakers that can take it, the room has the biggest, often subconscious, influence on your listening choices. A bigger space will always deal better with a bigger piece, and if it has a high-ish ceiling and a rectangular shape (classic shoebox!) so much the better (though some irregularity will help to break up unpleasant reflections or "standing waves"...).

Having said that, if the resolving power/control of a smaller set-up is good enough, then a large choral/orchestral piece is perfectly enjoyable (with modest volumes). I've experienced or owned a variety of systems, and a really big high-end one can shock you with what it can do - but only with enough space.
One detail which often stands out for me is how well a system copes with voices in a choral work: with solos especially, any excess closeness or fierceness usually prevents any real involvement (true of recordings too of course!). Tends to be a good guide to sound quality generally, as does solo piano.

I find headphones difficult to tolerate, even a friend's marvellous Stax Earspeakers seemed still too close for comfort.
But yes, a Mahler Symphony usually has another dimension in the concert hall itself - spatial and physical, yes, but the sense of an event too - the tension as the orchestra starts to fill the platform, the large audience, then the hush...

[verismissimo]

But yes, a Mahler Symphony usually has another dimension in the concert hall itself - spatial, yes, but the sense of an event too - the tension as the orchestra starts to fill the platform, the large audience, then the hush...

Oh yes! All of that, Jayne.

[Ferretfancy]

jayne

I'm lucky with a sizeable room and a five speaker set up, your comments on vocal and piano music are spot on. The crucial thing is loudspeaker placing, quite small changes make a big difference, and I've experimented quite a lot with calibrating the levels, admittedly only by ear. On this sort of system,the level and distance of the front centre speaker needs careful adjustment to get good balance and separation, and too much level on the rear speakers can cloud the sound. I don't have SACD, but Meridian's ambience settings are very sophisticated,and give great results, particularly with recordings that use simple microphone techniques.

One disc I have often used as a check is Ian Bostridge's first EMI recording of Schubert Songs. Much of the singing is very quiet, and not too close. If the centre image level is too high, the voice coarsens and vocal colour is distorted. I really think that careful attention to speaker choice and position makes a much more comfortable listening experience, and often improves what we hear in earlier performances.

Sometimes on these boards I read comments about large scale music, giving thoughtful comments on nuances of performance, only to find that the listener was listening to the car radio.There's nothing bad about that, but it can't be a real basis for assessing musicianship at any deep level.