Brahms' 4th (5th?) piano trio?

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  • LeMartinPecheur
    Full Member
    • Apr 2007
    • 4717

    Brahms' 4th (5th?) piano trio?

    No, not the original version of the B major trio Op 8, mentioned in passing on today's BaL. I refer to the A major trio attributed to Brahms which was recorded by the Beaux Arts Trio and more recently in a 'complete trios' 3-CD set by the Gould Trio (plus horn and clarinet for Op40 and Op114).

    Before buying the Gould set I think I'd heard it only once before, on R3 back probably in the 1970s. It then absolutely shouted to me that it was good mature Brahms, and reacquaintance hasn't changed my mind. Yet not only is it rarely met, it is pretty generally ignored by Brahms scholars.

    Its history in brief is that it was published in 1938 from a 19th century MS discovered in Bonn, not in Brahms' hand, and with no title page or attribution. It was quickly labelled by its discoverers as being one of Brahms's many chamber works discarded as not being - in his view - fit for publication. But since then it hardly gets a mention in the Brahms literature! The 1980s Grove lists it as '?authentic' though. The MS has now disappeared.

    One scholar who has strongly endorsed the attribution to Brahms is Malcolm MacDonald in his Master Musicians study. He notes that on blind listening anyone knowledgeable about classical music immediately spots it as Brahms, and that the difficulty for anyone arguing otherwise is putting forward another likely composer. He thinks the work comes after the B major, possibly as an 'Apollonian' twin to this 'Dionysian' Op 8, in the same relation as the G minor and A major piano quartets Op25 and 26.

    Any boarders here who are acquainted with this work? Brahms or not? If not, who is the unknown genius who wrote it?
    Last edited by LeMartinPecheur; 09-02-13, 20:51.
    I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!
  • Roehre

    #2
    Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post
    Any boarders here who are acquainted with this work? Brahms or not? If not, who is the unknown genius who wrote it?
    IMO this piano trio in A is a work by Brahms, for the following reasons:
    -beyond doubt it dates from the first half of the 1850s, most likely 1853 or '54, approximately the same time as the trio opus 8 was begun
    -the copy is written on paper produced in the Rhineland (Brahms was in Düsseldorf and Bonn in those years)
    -it shows those typical Brahms fingerprints, as there are melodies in thirds and sixths and irregular phrasing
    -it is known that Brahms had composed quite a lot of music between ca.1850 and 1855 which he destroyed (including a piano trio, at least one piano quartet, a violin sonata, at least two other piano sonatas, a symphony movement), though some of the pieces had been performed (the sonatas, and a trio, as well as a piano quartet in c-sharp e.g.) and therefore copies -at least the parts- must have been prepared
    -if not Brahms, who might be the composer then? It doesn't make sense to assume someone copied his style in the early 1850s, as his music was far from widely known or appreciated, and therefore making a style copy is out of the question. Were the copy to date from the 1870s or 1880s, then Herzogenberg, Jenner or Gernsheim could be a possible candidate. But this is to be ruled out completely because of the date as well as the paper of the manuscript.

    A pleasant and -obviously- youthful work, deserving to be heard more.
    Last edited by Guest; 09-02-13, 15:37.

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    • LeMartinPecheur
      Full Member
      • Apr 2007
      • 4717

      #3
      Thanks Roehre, I should've got a bet on that you'd be first to reply If the blooming work is so obviously Brahms, why the blazes isn't it played, and recorded, more??
      I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!

      Comment

      • EdgeleyRob
        Guest
        • Nov 2010
        • 12180

        #4
        Post#2,fascinating,many thanks Roehre (our very own musical encyclopedia).

        Comment

        • Roehre

          #5
          Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post
          Thanks Roehre, I should've got a bet on that you'd be first to reply If the blooming work is so obviously Brahms, why the blazes isn't it played, and recorded, more??
          Because at the present the composer of this trio is supposed to be that highly productive mr Anonymous....

          Comment

          • LeMartinPecheur
            Full Member
            • Apr 2007
            • 4717

            #6
            Originally posted by Roehre View Post
            Because at the present the composer of this trio is supposed to be that highly productive mr Anonymous....
            Supposed by whom?? It's bleedin' obvious that it's our Mr Johannes! Why can't this be conceded, and a very decent work properly admitted to the non-Anon repertoire??

            Anyway, to be really pedantic, you can't 'suppose' a work to be by Anon. That's a conclusion forced very reluctantly when you really can't tell. Not the case here by a long chalk!

            "This work is definitely by Anon, not Brahms" - I don't think so!
            I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!

            Comment

            • teamsaint
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 25210

              #7
              Well I should very much like to hear it.
              And we all can by just clicking on this


              Thanks for the great posts above, LMP and Roehre.
              I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

              I am not a number, I am a free man.

              Comment

              • Dave2002
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 18021

                #8
                There's a note here - http://www.earsense.org/chamberbase/...il/?pkey=28276

                The link from ts - msg 7 above - seems to insist on starting with the B major trio.

                It's on spotify - several versions - probably around here:

                http://open.spotify.com/track/42WKG19HMdKjkZZIx4FACa Macquarie Trio

                http://open.spotify.com/track/4oJIbZ0Xoekhlxl3ZRr3vH Odeon Trio

                http://open.spotify.com/track/6cnUMOecDZuOvF3EInqu3b Vienna Piano Trio

                http://open.spotify.com/track/0LhJWLGxMTH74xHBOO3swB Eskar Trio

                http://open.spotify.com/track/0a26BpIIf4iZqY2t4vbL6R Mirecourt Trio

                http://open.spotify.com/track/7xoZ1ibOGgfxXfZrDSxIcl Gould Piano Trio

                http://open.spotify.com/track/22bP3SgQCe1Bm0OsPVzZMU Beaux Arts Trio

                My first thoughts were that this does sound rather like Brahms as we know him. I wasn't so sure initially about the first movement. The 2nd movement has (to me) clear similarities with the horn trio - the opening rhythm and rather jumpy nature seems very close to the other work - then the lyrical section which follows also seems characteristic. The second movement also seems to have similarities to the B major trio. I'm glad it's in the Beaux Arts Trio collection too.

                As the author of the earsense article - (first link above) says - this might not be by Brahms, but if not then who? Someone very talented obviously.

                It seems to get better on repeated listening.

                Comment

                • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                  Gone fishin'
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 30163

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                  It seems to get better on repeated listening.
                  That clinches it: definitely Brahms!
                  [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                  • teamsaint
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 25210

                    #10
                    Well, I had a listen and have these thoughts.
                    1. its very enjoyable.
                    2. It sounds like Brahms
                    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                    I am not a number, I am a free man.

                    Comment

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