Communication in ensembles

[kernelbogey]

Not getting a response to my post below, hidden away under an unrelated thread title, I thought this might be a topic worthy of a thread of its own.

Whether that [pep talk from conductor between acts] happens or not, it raises for me the more interesting question of whether and how a change of energy in a performance might be created by the mutual communication of the music making. This must be true of 'excellent' performances, even where the conductor is highly respected, and/or where there has been no 'failing'. I don't know if this has ever been discussed on the boards but it would be very interesting to hear comments from orchestral players.

Horenstein / LSO / BBC Proms 1970 on BBC Legends.
Confession time: I am biased because I was playing 1st Wagner Tuba / 5th horn in that performance... however, I am still, to this day, awestruck by the memory of Horenstein's overall, visionary mastery of tempo, balance and RHYTHM. In pursuit of the 'long line' many Bruckner 'interpreters' totally neglect his underlying, driving rhythms so that the whole thing becomes sloppy and unfocussed.
It's a very humbling experience to sit there at the start of the performance, waiting to play, waiting for the downbeat and to gaze at the face of the conductor whose countenance immediately tells you that he simply KNOWS exactly, inevitably, how the coda of the symphony is going to 'go' as well as all the wealth of detail during that long journey.
I will always remember that concert, to my dying day.

So two, possibly diverse, issues here about communication between musicians.

In what ways does a group of musicians - whether orchestra or chamber ensemble - communicate with one another that leads to a change in the performance? I imagine this to be a more intense and subtle ongoing process in a small group like a string quartet.

And how is that influenced by the conductor...?

[Nick Armstrong]

It is an interesting topic, but on on which i too have only questions. One for the Pros, I think

Been hunting on the internet for that anecdote about a timp player in Furtwangler's orchestra following the score during a rehearsal by another conductor, becoming aware suddenly of a total change / improvement in the orchestra's sound, looking up to find out why, and seeing that Furtwangler had just come in at the back of the empty hall - the suggestion being that his mere presence was enough to transform the sound.

Anyone know the proper version of that? Anyone believe it?

[kernelbogey]

It is an interesting topic, but on on which i too have only questions. One for the Pros, I think

Been hunting on the internet for that anecdote about a timp player in Furtwangler's orchestra following the score during a rehearsal by another conductor, becoming aware suddenly of a total change / improvement in the orchestra's sound, looking up to find out why, and seeing that Furtwangler had just come in at the back of the empty hall - the suggestion being that his mere presence was enough to transform the sound.

Anyone know the proper version of that? Anyone believe it?

Thanks for the post Cali. It would be lovely if it's true, and I hope it is.

I'm wondering whether lack of response is because the topic's considered too complex, or that I'm just interested in the psychological mechanics of this process in a way that pros, who perhaps take it for granted, are not.

[amateur51]

It is an interesting topic, but on on which i too have only questions. One for the Pros, I think

Been hunting on the internet for that anecdote about a timp player in Furtwangler's orchestra following the score during a rehearsal by another conductor, becoming aware suddenly of a total change / improvement in the orchestra's sound, looking up to find out why, and seeing that Furtwangler had just come in at the back of the empty hall - the suggestion being that his mere presence was enough to transform the sound.

Anyone know the proper version of that? Anyone believe it?

I wouldn't swear that it was a timp player but I think I heard the story in a film about The Art of Conducting or somesuch

[Petrushka]

It is an interesting topic, but on on which i too have only questions. One for the Pros, I think

Been hunting on the internet for that anecdote about a timp player in Furtwangler's orchestra following the score during a rehearsal by another conductor, becoming aware suddenly of a total change / improvement in the orchestra's sound, looking up to find out why, and seeing that Furtwangler had just come in at the back of the empty hall - the suggestion being that his mere presence was enough to transform the sound.

Anyone know the proper version of that? Anyone believe it?

Werner Thärichen, the BPO timpanist for both Furtwängler and Karajan, told this story on the TV documentary 'The Art of Conducting'. I only have this on VHS so can't check it out as my video player no longer works but sure memory is correct.

Edit: Hadn't seen your post, Am51, while I was dithering around doing mine

Further edit: It's included here: http://www.goodlistening.com.br/?p=38

[amateur51]

Werner Thärichen, the BPO timpanist for both Furtwängler and Karajan, told this story on the TV documentary 'The Art of Conducting'. I only have this on VHS so can't check it out as my video player no longer works but sure memory is correct.

Edit: Hadn't seen your post, Am51, while I was dithering around doing mine

Further edit: It's included here: http://www.goodlistening.com.br/?p=38

Bravo Petrushka - we're a couple of ditherers then but together we've got there.

Here is the clip at about 55 minutes in ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYnqU4AJvtA

And you were quite right about it being the timp player, Caliban

[Hornspieler]

Not getting a response to my post below, hidden away under an unrelated thread title, I thought this might be a topic worthy of a thread of its own.
In what ways does a group of musicians - whether orchestra or chamber ensemble - communicate with one another that leads to a change in the performance? I imagine this to be a more intense and subtle ongoing process in a small group like a string quartet.

And how is that influenced by the conductor...?

Well, here is Waldhorn's answer which I completely endorse.

Originally Posted by waldhorn
Horenstein / LSO / BBC Proms 1970 on BBC Legends.
Confession time: I am biased because I was playing 1st Wagner Tuba / 5th horn in that performance... however, I am still, to this day, awestruck by the memory of Horenstein's overall, visionary mastery of tempo, balance and RHYTHM. In pursuit of the 'long line' many Bruckner 'interpreters' totally neglect his underlying, driving rhythms so that the whole thing becomes sloppy and unfocussed.
It's a very humbling experience to sit there at the start of the performance, waiting to play, waiting for the downbeat and to gaze at the face of the conductor whose countenance immediately tells you that he simply KNOWS exactly, inevitably, how the coda of the symphony is going to 'go' as well as all the wealth of detail during that long journey.
I will always remember that concert, to my dying day

Of all the conductors that I have played for, I would say that Jascha Horenstein is my favourite. A forbidding personality, but a man who knew exactly what he wanted and his facial expression alone in performance communicated to the players how they were doing;

"... ah well, back into the Chamber of Horenstein" was a comment frequently heard when returning from a tea break during rehearsal.

Bruno Walter seemed to communicate his wishes by sheer mental telepathy. The baton did nothing unusual - he said little during rehearsals but, when the time came to give the performance, one found oneself playing better than one knew how.

Tommy Beecham was very similar. When asked why his Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, packed with the finest musicians was so successful, his reply was "I let them play. They are the country's best. Why interfere?"
But there was more to it than that. They played for Beecham much better than for other conductors, probably quite uncinscious of the fact.

Some Orchestra Leaders also display this ability to communicate without saying a word. Laurence Turner with the Hallé orchestra and Manoug Parikian with Walter Legge's Philharmonia are good examples.

The important thing is that there must be effective communication, whether evident or not, if a concert performance is to supercede the quality of the afternoon's rehearsal.
Where that essential link between conductor and players is not there, the result is self-evident.


HS

[salymap]

She

It is an interesting topic, but on on which i too have only questions. One for the Pros, I think

Been hunting on the internet for that anecdote about a timp player in Furtwangler's orchestra following the score during a rehearsal by another conductor, becoming aware suddenly of a total change / improvement in the orchestra's sound, looking up to find out why, and seeing that Furtwangler had just come in at the back of the empty hall - the suggestion being that his mere presence was enough to transform the sound.

Anyone know the proper version of that? Anyone believe it?

I've read it somewhere. Just an idea. 'The Baton and the Jackboot' by Berta Geissmar.She was Furtwangler's
assistant and later worked for Beecham. She was probably aware of it through her contacts with the BPO

[kernelbogey]

Thanks for you post, Hornspieler.

Part of my interest is in what might happen between the musicians, as well as between conductor and orchestra. Obviously you are listening to each other all the time so there is a complex process of communication going on. That is, you will hear your colleagues' responses to the conductor, and to each others' playing. I would be very interested in anything you have to say about that, too.

BW, kb

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A related issue:-
One musician (instrumentalist, singer or conductor) who takes part in a performance involving others has an influence on the outcome, however insignificant his/her contribution. The growth of the backing track takes this away. It dehumanises music, once the live performers are controlled by a machine. It may be thought to be the way primarily of popular music musicians, but it is used widely in schools, often with dire results, and the dreadful SingUp project that does more harm than good positively encourages it in preference to a real person parlaying a real piano.

It makes me angry when I see the effect it has upon children as young as 5.

[MrGongGong]

A related issue:-
One musician (instrumentalist, singer or conductor) who takes part in a performance involving others has an influence on the outcome, however insignificant his/her contribution. The growth of the backing track takes this away. It dehumanises music, once the live performers are controlled by a machine. It may be thought to be the way primarily of popular music musicians, but it is used widely in schools, often with dire results, and the dreadful SingUp project that does more harm than good positively encourages it in preference to a real person parlaying a real piano.

It makes me angry when I see the effect it has upon children as young as 5.

There's a whole load of stuff here indeed
As someone who uses lots of technology in work i'm always more than a little puzzled that folk seem to want to use it to replace things that already exist ?
Why would I want to make my computer sound like a piano when I can do things with it that I can't do with a piano, and the piano is a great invention anyway ?
The unimaginative use of backing tracks and the idea that technology is a replacement rather than something else to explore (see the life of Jonathan Harvey for example !) is something that needs to be challenged.