Should A Modern Symphony Orchestra Be Allowed To Play Mozart Symphonies?

[richardfinegold]

Someone was posting a few days ago about an upcoming concert that featured rattle conducting mozart's last 3 symphonies.
I had seen a concert in Chicago a few years ago with the identical program, in the last days of Barenboim's tenure here. A member of the orchestra made a short speech before each of the works. What struck me was how apologetic and defensive they were for the programming.
They all made it plain that they love the music, and their tone seemed to suggest that there was a prevailing attitude that a large orchestra playing modern instruments had no business playing this music. They were treating the opinion that only chamber orchestras or H.I.P. (Historically Informed Practice) Orchestras could play this music as the norm, and their programming that night was a relic of bygone days.
I had downloaded a period performance of these works recently on i tunes conducted by Rene Jacobs. I absolutely detest it. The tempos are so fast it sounds like an lp recorded at 33 and playing at 78 r.pm. I pulled Hogwood's recordings off the shelf and was relieved to find the music sounding in comparison almost as if Karl Bohm had conducted it. It seems as though the longer Period performance has been with us, the more hyper the tempos have become.
i hope that Orchestras around the world haven't relinquished the Mozart Symphonies. What a loss that would be.

[Barbirollians]

Well there was a thread about this last summer after it was noted in the Guardian that the BBCSO had not played a Mozart symphony at the Proms for yonks .

[jayne lee wilson]

Of course you shouldn't ban anyone from playing Mozart if they want - it's up to them to make a good job of it. Not sure about tempos being faster now though... neither Bruggen or Harnoncourt are extreme in that respect.

Personally I do find it hard now to listen to big-band Mozart or Haydn, especially if the tempi are fairly moderate. There's more expressive flexibility and rhythmic agility available to a smaller band, and this applies equally to Bruggen or Fey in Haydn as it does to Peter Maag's Mozart with the Orchestra di Padova e del Veneto. But - remember how large the Paris orchestra of Haydn and Mozart's time could be!

Again, if you go back to Hermann Scherchen's 1950s Haydn or Beethoven recordings, they're so agile, lucid and expressive you don't worry too much about the size of the orchestra. It works because of the conductor's vision and practical, musical application. Individually inspired in that place and time, it still sounds wonderful.
Another very different example would be Gunter Wand's early Mozart recordings in Cologne.

Attending concerts here in Liverpool, or watching the Berlin DCH, I note that most conductors reduce the size of a modern symphony orchestra for Mozart and Haydn, increasingly for Beethoven too. This can make the music fresher and more alive, but can mean that the sonorities fail to fill a 2000-seater acoustic!

[richardfinegold]

Of course you shouldn't ban anyone from playing Mozart if they want - it's up to them to make a good job of it. Not sure about tempos being faster now though... neither Bruggen or Harnoncourt are extreme in that respect.

Personally I do find it hard now to listen to big-band Mozart or Haydn, especially if the tempi are fairly moderate. There's more expressive flexibility and rhythmic agility available to a smaller band, and this applies equally to Bruggen or Fey in Haydn as it does to Peter Maag's Mozart with the Orchestra di Padova e del Veneto. But - remember how large the Paris orchestra of Haydn and Mozart's time could be!

Again, if you go back to Hermann Scherchen's 1950s Haydn or Beethoven recordings, they're so agile, lucid and expressive you don't worry too much about the size of the orchestra. It works because of the conductor's vision and practical, musical application. Individually inspired in that place and time, it still sounds wonderful.
Another very different example would be Gunter Wand's early Mozart recordings in Cologne.

Attending concerts here in Liverpool, or watching the Berlin DCH, I note that most conductors reduce the size of a modern symphony orchestra for Mozart and Haydn, increasingly for Beethoven too. This can make the music fresher and more alive, but can mean that the sonorities fail to fill a 2000-seater acoustic!

One can site many instances of "Big Band" Orchestras playing music from the Classical Period with athletic vigor. Bernstein's Haydn Symphonies would be my prime exhibit. Szell's Mozart and Haydn would be another.
There are the big Band recordings that just don't work because they resemble an elephant tap dancing. Karajan, Solti Ormandy come to mind here.
At any rate, i was struck at how the Orchestra was so defensive about their right to play Mozart.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There's a whole industry out there, pouring derision upon classical works played by conventional orchestras. I just ignore it.
The vibrato thing is a lie and the tempo thing is misleading (c.f. Furtwangler's Mozart 40, Erich Kleiber's Eroica & a whole host of Toscanini performances).
Let those a who want to hear politically correct Mozart. Leave the rest of us with performances that have a soul.

[Bryn]

A modern day Rollo writes:

There's a whole industry out there, pouring derision upon classical works played by conventional orchestras. I just ignore it.
The vibrato thing is a lie and the tempo thing is misleading (c.f. Furtwangler's Mozart 40, Erich Kleiber's Eroica & a whole host of Toscanini performances).
Let those a who want to hear politically correct Mozart. Leave the rest of us with performances that have a soul.

Sad really, but there you are.

[Hornspieler]

There's a whole industry out there, pouring derision upon classical works played by conventional orchestras. I just ignore it.
The vibrato thing is a lie and the tempo thing is misleading (c.f. Furtwangler's Mozart 40, Erich Kleiber's Eroica & a whole host of Toscanini performances).
Let those a who want to hear politically correct Mozart. Leave the rest of us with performances that have a soul.

Hear, hear! Live and let live!

But Jayne makes a good point in her final paragraph:

Attending concerts here in Liverpool, or watching the Berlin DCH, I note that most conductors reduce the size of a modern symphony orchestra for Mozart and Haydn, increasingly for Beethoven too. This can make the music fresher and more alive, but can mean that the sonorities fail to fill a 2000-seater acoustic!

The fact was that in Bournemouth, it was standard practice to reduce the orchestra for Mozart and Haydn (the earlier the work, the smaller the orchestra) but when the Bournemouth Sinfonietta was formed, with the intention to go to those venues within the region that were not large enough (or populace enough) to accomodate a full symphony orchestra, that repertoire was taken as the Sinfoniettas main menu and the BSO played practically nothing which was pre-Beethoven. Other provincial symphony orchestras did the same, allowing such as the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, Northern Sinfonia, and other regional Chamber bands a major share of the early classical repertoire.

Why should there not be room for both versions? You don't see any Mercedes in the London to Brighton Run and you won't find any Daimler Benz verterans in the Formula One GP at Silverstone, but both events have their fans and their place in our society. (Unless you're worried about the dreaded Global Warming myth.)

HS (Vroom, Vroom!)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There's a whole industry out there, pouring derision upon classical works played by conventional orchestras.

No there isn't.

I just ignore it.

Which is as easy as ignoring the dragon in your bathroom.

The vibrato thing is a lie

?

and the tempo thing is misleading (c.f. Furtwangler's Mozart 40, Erich Kleiber's Eroica & a whole host of Toscanini performances).

Only "misleading" to those who haven't understood it in the first place.

Let those a who want to hear politically correct Mozart.

?

Leave the rest of us with performances that have a soul.

Oh, yes: Kuijken saved mine, I think.

Now, look what you've gone and done to poor old Alpie, richardfinegold! Shame on you: it's like saying "Cleaningwoman" to Steve Martin!

(Oh, and "Yes" to your question.)

[Tony Halstead]

Someone was posting a few days ago about an upcoming concert that featured rattle conducting mozart's last 3 symphonies.
I had seen a concert in Chicago a few years ago with the identical program, in the last days of Barenboim's tenure here. A member of the orchestra made a short speech before each of the works. What struck me was how apologetic and defensive they were for the programming.
They all made it plain that they love the music, and their tone seemed to suggest that there was a prevailing attitude that a large orchestra playing modern instruments had no business playing this music. They were treating the opinion that only chamber orchestras or H.I.P. (Historically Informed Practice) Orchestras could play this music as the norm, and their programming that night was a relic of bygone days.
I had downloaded a period performance of these works recently on i tunes conducted by Rene Jacobs. I absolutely detest it. The tempos are so fast it sounds like an lp recorded at 33 and playing at 78 r.pm. I pulled Hogwood's recordings off the shelf and was relieved to find the music sounding in comparison almost as if Karl Bohm had conducted it. It seems as though the longer Period performance has been with us, the more hyper the tempos have become.
i hope that Orchestras around the world haven't relinquished the Mozart Symphonies. What a loss that would be.

My strong recommendation would be to ignore Monsieur Jacobs; he is well-known as a notorious 'speed merchant'.
it's totally wrong to lump all other period conductors / directors with this frenetic, hysterical 'interpreter'.

[MrGongGong]

One of the most "interesting" orchestral things I have heard was the Halle at full strength playing a Mozart symphony in Lincoln Cathedral
with such a huge reverberation the whole thing turned into a wonderful spectral smear in the Grisey manner

A complete misunderstanding of context can create things of value
(though the critic said that "The cathedral was cold and over-resonant" which begs the No Sh*t Sherlock response)

[Bryn]

On the kind recommendation of a Mr. Cowan, I invested in a box of Mozart symphonies in which the mature works were conductetpd by someone by the name of Harnoncourt. The orchestra was some Dutch outfit or other'. A very fine recommendation it was, too.

[Barbirollians]

I find it nonsensical . There is no reason at all why modern symphony orchestras should not play baroque music let alone Mozart and Haydn so long as they play it well !

In my collection I find Sir Colin Davis'd Cgebouw Haydn London symphonies remain marvellous 30 years after their recordings. Klemperer's late 1950s Mozart , Cantelli's dazzling Symphony No 29 and Boult's 1970s Jupiter too .

Other performances have worn less well Karajan in particular and to an extent Bohm too but - to me those performances have as much to offer as modern instrument chamber versions like Mackerras and Menuhin and as much as do the Pinnock, Hogwood or Harnoncourt versions I have heard .

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Now, look what you've gone and done to poor old Alpie, richardfinegold!

Hey! Less of the "old".

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But to be serious, I greatly admire Beecham, Marriner and Bernstein in Mozart symphonies. Less so with Bohm, though I do like his K.550. Levine, despite having the VPO, seems to lose the plot.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

And Colin Davis...