Should A Modern Symphony Orchestra Be Allowed To Play Mozart Symphonies?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Hey! Less of the "old".

Quite so: my profound apologies!

But to be serious, I greatly admire Beecham, Marriner and Bernstein in Mozart symphonies.

Bernstein with the VPO is still my favourite set of the late Mozart Symphonies; he, Kuijken and Klemperer all in their different ways reveal more to me of this awe-inspiring Music than any others. Marriner I prefer in the Haydn Symphonies and the Mozart Piano Concertos. I love Beecham's 1930s Zauberflöte, less so his Symphonies.

Less so with Bohm, though I do like his K.550. Levine, despite having the VPO, seems to lose the plot.

I don't know the Levine, but, yes, Böhm's symphony recordings never for me matched his wonderful recordings of the Operas. Much as I admire Karajan, his Symphonies never quite "do it" for me: the Prague & No 39 are his better ones - oh, and the one-movement No 32. He was much more successful, I feel, in Haydn.

And Colin Davis...

I nearly wrote "peerless" as a description of Böhm's opera recordings - Davis stayed my hand (and Solti was splendid in Figaro & Flute, too). I can't remember hearing any of his Mozart Symphony recordings/performances, though. Magnificent Haydn, too - wipes the Big Band board as far as I'm concerned. (Karajan falls at every post with the Minuets - dancing through treacle!)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I love Beecham's 1930s Zauberflöte, less so his Symphonies.

I think Beecham excels in 36, 38 & 39, though his Minuets are a little on the heavy side.
Another conductor whose Mozart deserves revisiting is Krips.

[Roehre]

Another conductor whose Mozart deserves revisiting is Krips.

For me the "traditional" performances for the later symphonies (he didn't do the earlier ones IIRC), the drive in the Prague e.g. (should be mentioned in the goose bumps thread ) is IMO unsurpassed. Brilliant recordings with the Concertgebouworchestra from the early 1970s.

[Ferretfancy]

As it happens, I was listening to Beecham conducting Haydn 93 this morning over my toast. Sir Thomas came in for quite a bit of stick for those performances, recorded with the RPO in Paris in the late 1950s. Unauthentic though they are, there's still pleasure to be gained from them, and why should we be dragooned into treating them as no longer relevant or correct? This would be to destroy history.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes, I enjoy Beecham's Haydn recordings - I don't know who was responsible for the "bit of stick", but I'd take issue with them. And who is "dragooning" whom? You like 'em; I like 'em; I bet young Alpie and HS like 'em, too! Pretty third-rate "dragooning" - and I'm sure there's a "Light Infantry" pun in there somewhere!

[Hornspieler]

Yes, I enjoy Beecham's Haydn recordings - I don't know who was responsible for the "bit of stick", but I'd take issue with them. And who is "dragooning" whom? You like 'em; I like 'em; I bet young Alpie and HS like 'em, too! Pretty third-rate "dragooning" - and I'm sure there's a "Light Infantry" pun in there somewhere!

Even throughout the tragically short lives of such as Schubert and Mozart, but especially the long span of Haydn's symphonic output, instruments were undergoing improvement, earlier influences were fading and composers were adopting new trends and styles.

So I beg to suggest that the argument for H.I.P bands is stronger for the early symphonies than it is for the later (and Haydn is a very good example here) if authenticity is the sole criterion for the listener.
Woodwind instruments acquired extra keys, horns and trumpets gained a complete compass with the introduction of valves, to overcome the limitations of being restricted to the harmonic series.
Stringed instruments were modified over the years - as were bows.
Perhaps the most important development over these composers' lives was the keyboard.

Scarlatti on a harpsichord would sound fine, but would you prefer to hear Beethoven's "Emperor" piano concerto played on a spinet, or harpsichord - or even a fortepiano?

Whenever I have travelled of toured in this country, one of my favourite trips is to find the local museum and enjoy the evidence of the past history, but I have no desire at all to return to those times - except occasionally out of curiousity.

Anyway, here's a little story for Caliban's delectation on the subject of musical relics:

We were playing a season for the Welsh National Opera in Cardiff. Claire, our principal oboe, had the task one night of playing "The Italian Girl in Algiers"
No problem, but Frank, the second oboeist was well known for his "Malapropisms" (he used to say things like "what do you think we should do about these nuclear detergents?" for instance.

On this occasion, sitting in the orchestra pit and waiting for the conductor to enter Frank was full of his afternoon activities.

"Do you know?" he said to Claire "I went to the Folk Museum at St Faguns this afternoon. They have a wonderful array of musical instruments from the past. There was one room that was full of old Welsh vaginals!"

Poor Claire! The orchestra started the overture, but every time she drew a breath to play, she was convulsed with helpless laughter!
(I think it was the flautist, sitting next to her who rescued the situation).

..... and we quibble about typos

Have a good weekend

Hornspieler

[Nick Armstrong]

Anyway, here's a little story for Caliban's delectation on the subject of musical relics:

......

"old Welsh vaginals!"

HS, you certainly tickled my delectation bone with that one!

I saw on another thread that you'd kindly promised me an anecdote or two.

"Keep 'em coming" is all I can say, as well as "thanks"!

[Mandryka]

I've always thought of the desire for 'authenticity' in period performance as the analogue of 'political correctness' in society - and I am against both.

It might be 'interesting' to hear a piece composed by Mozart, Beethoven, et al performed by the kind of forces and on the types of instruments the composer would have been familiar with.

However, there is no evidence to suggest that said composers would not have availed themselves of bigger forces/different instruments had they had access to them.

If I want to listen to these baroque/classical works, I prefer to hear them performed by a large forces, presided over by Klemperer or someone of that ilk.

[Barbirollians]

I've always thought of the desire for 'authenticity' in period performance as the analogue of 'political correctness' in society - and I am against both.

It might be 'interesting' to hear a piece composed by Mozart, Beethoven, et al performed by the kind of forces and on the types of instruments the composer would have been familiar with.

However, there is no evidence to suggest that said composers would not have availed themselves of bigger forces/different instruments had they had access to them.

If I want to listen to these baroque/classical works, I prefer to hear them performed by a large forces, presided over by Klemperer or someone of that ilk.

Rumours that Harold wilson was a massive fan of the Academy of Ancient Music were denied today !

[MrGongGong]

I've always thought of the desire for 'authenticity' in period performance as the analogue of 'political correctness' in society - and I am against both.

Well as you seem to have no idea what either of these really are then I guess it follows that you must be against your own confusion amongst all the other things that you seem to be "against" .........

[amateur51]

If I want to listen to these baroque/classical works, I prefer to hear them performed by a large forces, presided over by Klemperer or someone of that ilk.

Who did you have in mind?

And before you answer, just imagine that the great man is listening for your reply ...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes, I enjoy Beecham's Haydn recordings - ............. I bet young Alpie and HS like 'em, too!

Keep it up, Ferney.

[Barbirollians]

Keep it up, Ferney.

I wonder EA what your reaction would be at the announcement of a new vibratoless Norrrington recording of Eine Alpensinfonie !

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I've always thought of the desire for 'authenticity' in period performance as the analogue of 'political correctness' in society

Why?

It might be 'interesting' to hear a piece composed by Mozart, Beethoven, et al performed by the kind of forces and on the types of instruments the composer would have been familiar with.

I'm not sure why the inverted commas were there, Mandy - either it is (genuinely) "interesting or it isn't. For many of us, as Music is a sonic Art, the sounds and tunings of the instruments the composers were used to and for which they wrote are as integral a part of understanding the genius of the composer as are the colours and paints used by visual Artists. To imagine that the works sound better on instruments unknown to the composers is to have as scant regard for the composers' craft as to criticize Gainsborough's use of blues, Constable's greys, or Turner's reds.

However, there is no evidence to suggest that said composers would not have availed themselves of bigger forces/different instruments had they had access to them.

Nor that Michelangelo wouldn't've used emulsion on the Sistine Chapel ceiling, nor that Shakespeare would not have used Beyoncé to deliver his lyrics, nor that Dante would not have preferred to write in Sanskrit.

If I want to listen to these baroque/classical works, I prefer to hear them performed by a large forces, presided over by Klemperer or someone of that ilk.

So your comment on Robert King ("The man is guilty, the work innocent") was just an attempt to wind people up?

[Pabmusic]

Even throughout the tragically short lives of such as Schubert and Mozart, but especially the long span of Haydn's symphonic output, instruments were undergoing improvement, earlier influences were fading and composers were adopting new trends and styles.

So I beg to suggest that the argument for H.I.P bands is stronger for the early symphonies than it is for the later (and Haydn is a very good example here) if authenticity is the sole criterion for the listener.
Woodwind instruments acquired extra keys, horns and trumpets gained a complete compass with the introduction of valves, to overcome the limitations of being restricted to the harmonic series.
Stringed instruments were modified over the years - as were bows...

Yes. It is these huge developments in instrumental technology that cause problems for the 'original instruments' part of the HIPP philosophy. Do we prevent players using anachronistic versions of the instruments composers wrote for, even though those 'modern' improvements came about for clearly understandable reasons? Well, yes, I suppose so if all you're after is a snapshot of a moment in time. But music should be more than a frozen record. And how far do we go? Because a particular improvement was not introduced until 1796, do we ban it from performances of The Marriage of Figaro?

The situation becomes sillier still when we reach the twentieth century. You will know of the advances in horn playing brought about by the likes of Dennis Brain. A hundred years ago, horns (and players) were often unreliable, because of the difficulties due to the part of the harmonic series utilised by horns, as opposed to other brass instruments. I think it was accepted as unavoidable that horn players would crack notes. That isn't the case now, and hasn't been since WW2 at least. So do we only allow performances of Elgar 1 that reproduce the old-style, unreliable horn playing?

I think that HIPP has reminded us that things were once done differently - that is good, and the use of smaller bodies of strings and crisper styles has been a big plus - though there's nothing wrong with other styles. But to suggest that things should be reduced to a snapshot of 1782 (or whenever) is tremendously limiting.