Howard Goodall on BBC Two

[Ian]

I'm not thinking of Lovejoy, no. Do you find yourself often thinking of Lovejoy?

I really Like Lovejoy, didn't back in the 80's but I've matured since then.

I didn't say anything was massively popular. Do you have an obsession with the size of things? There was genuine, minority, interest, and concerts and events were well attended by people from a range of backgrounds over a range of ages. You have something against minorities?

Err, No. In fact I thought it was me (and HG) emphasising the minority interest aspect.

It's easier to hear music now when you know about it. Back then if you were curious you stood some chance of coming upon it via the BBC and then developing an interest. I'm not saying it doesn't happen now because it does. But it's symptomatic that the BBC presents a series about modern music with the subtext in the C20 these composers got together and stopped music sounding nice.

I think that's an unreasonable spin (see message 337)

I don't think a BBC series on modern art would present Cubism in the same way.

Not like with like. A history of 20C music should place the (competing) trends in a comparative context. A programme about a specific aspect - Serialism, minimalism, cubism would be a different matter.

[Julien Sorel]

I really Like Lovejoy, didn't back in the 80's but I've matured since then.

Ripened?

Not like with like. A history of 20C music should place the (competing) trends in a comparative context. A programme about a specific aspect - Serialism, minimalism, cubism would be a different matter.

Err, no. I wrote "I don't think a BBC series on modern art would present Cubism in the same way." Not: "I don't think a BBC series on Cubism would present Cubism in the same way." If you prefer: "I don't think a BBC series on the history of modern art would present Cubism in the same way," though I'd have thought the initial version made it clear I was indeed comparing like with like.

[Ian]

Err, no. I wrote "I don't think a BBC series on modern art would present Cubism in the same way." Not: "I don't think a BBC series on Cubism would present Cubism in the same way." If you prefer: "I don't think a BBC series on the history of modern art would present Cubism in the same way," though I'd have thought the initial version made it clear I was indeed comparing like with like.

Sorry, you are correct. But where is the rational in likening Cubism with Serial music or Modernism? Why not equate it with neo-classicism or bebop?

[Ian]

You'll be glad to hear that I've got to go. Here's something for you to remember/forget me by:

https://soundcloud.com/the-boo-hooray-theory/sacred_cow

[Julien Sorel]

Sorry, you are correct. But where is the rational in likening Cubism with Serial music or Modernism? Why not equate it with neo-classicism or bebop?

I wasn't likening it with anything. I was saying that the BBC presents a series on - broadly - the history of modern - broadly - classical music and starts from the premise that - broadly - the origins of modern - broadly - classical music are catastrophic. That something went wrong, but fortunately there have been and are composers who put or are putting it right. Now that's a way of looking at Cubism (it's the way many contemporaries of the artists and the art works looked at Cubism), but I'd be surprised if the BBC commissioned a series on the history of modern art which pursued that line. I'd concede such a history might be interesting, if only because it ran counter to how I, at any rate, would expect them to treat Cubism in the context of the history of modern art.

[MrGongGong]

It's a shame that this book promises so much
but sadly (unlike the music it discusses ) fails to deliver IMV

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fear-Music-People-Rothko-Stockhausen/dp/1846941792

this also

http://www.overgrownpath.com/2013/02/people-who-dont-listen-to-classical.html

(haven't read it all yet)

and this is worth exploring (if only we had that when I had to read Adorno etc)

http://www.classicalmusicisboring.com/archive/2011/01/cmib00081.html

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

er can we leave bebop out of this one eh ..... EL Senor's ducks will not take it well ...

[Serial_Apologist]

er can we leave bebop out of this one eh ..... EL Senor's ducks will not take it well ...

Did you spot my brief #301 reply to your earlier query re serialism yesterday, Calum?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Did you spot my brief #301 reply to your earlier query re serialism yesterday, Calum?

er no but i have now and your take on serialism and the little impact on jazz would be my view as well ....

even Elton John is a minority taste ....

i do not believe that the audience for serious music [classical] is much over 10% of the population of the Western World and that for jazz about 5% .... i wonder what the position is regarding Indian Classical Music is versus Bollywood type songs share of audience in Asia?

surely one of the inferences from HG is that without these serious arts the popular stuff would not be up to much ....

one of my experiences listening to Schoenberg serialist works is that live performance is essential ... and mixed with different types of composition ...

[Serial_Apologist]

er no but i have now and your take on serialism and the little impact on jazz would be my view as well ....

even Elton John is a minority taste ....

i do not believe that the audience for serious music [classical] is much over 10% of the population of the Western World and that for jazz about 5% .... i wonder what the position is regarding Indian Classical Music is versus Bollywood type songs share of audience in Asia?

surely one of the inferences from HG is that without these serious arts the popular stuff would not be up to much ....

one of my experiences listening to Schoenberg serialist works is that live performance is essential ... and mixed with different types of composition ...

Have a check of the clips Ferney and I have posted on #1 and #3 on the below thread, Calum:

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?7694-Extraordinary-Listening

[ahinton]

one of my experiences listening to Schoenberg serialist works is that live performance is essential ... and mixed with different types of composition ...

OK, but that surely applies equally to any music intended by it composer for performance by live instrumentalists and singers, not just the serially organised compositions of Schönberg or Schoenberg?

[Serial_Apologist]

OK, but that surely applies equally to any music intended by it composer for performance by live instrumentalists and singers, not just the serially organised compositions of Schönberg or Schoenberg?

It may be that Calum was suggesting juxtaposing different areas of serial composition, ah. For me it would be fascinating to have the Schoenberg Op 25 performed either before or after (but preferably after) Stravinsky's Piano Sonata, composed at around the same time, in order to illustrate two approaches to "neo-classicism" or "neo-baroquism" from then-opposing aesthetic standpoints. Much as I enjoy the latter for its charm and subtlety, I know which one rewards me in repeated listenings.

Edit: it just occurs to me that Eisler's sonata, composed also around that time, looks from a superficial point of view in both directions - towards Schoenberg and towards Stravinsky, or at least the latter's interest in surface detail and jazz.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

logic is not all there is ahinton, i believe serial music gains additional value for the listener in live performance to a greater degree than other genres

[ahinton]

logic is not all there is ahinton, i believe serial music gains additional value for the listener in live performance to a greater degree than other genres

That's interesting; why do you assume this to be the case. I find the idea quite curious, especially to the extent that I find it hard to perceive that many listeners not technically versed in compositional procedures, not musically literate and without wide listening experience would not likely recognise whether the music was serial or not, whether at a live performance or on a recording.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Nor entirely off-topic, has anyone else heard Goodall's "Land of the Lakes Suite"?

This extended clip was rescued from a VHS tape that was partially wiped. I do have a VHS tape of the whole piece, though the quality isn't great.