Howard Goodall on BBC Two

[teamsaint]

Record sales or sales of tickets for concerts don't happen by magic: they are arrived at via marketing, advertising, promotion, and - as you say - control by vested interests. The vested interests in control are innately hostile to the complex, the difficult or the plain different. That applies just as well to non-classical music as it does to classical music. It doesn't mean that people wouldn't respond positively to "the complex, the difficult or the plain different." It means they don't want people to respond positively to them.

The endless repetition of the line that modern classical music is the preserve of an elitist clique, the John Adamses etc. have opened up the market is circular and self-fulfilling. Because the people who write and say these things control the market.

Spot on.
and what goes for "Classical Music" applies in so many other areas.
But the positive from this is to reclaim, share, learn, trust others, believe in our own judgement and NOT just accept what is thrown at us .

[Serial_Apologist]

That makes sense to me but doesn't the subversive presence of youtube, Spotify, et al mean that via a thread like this an enthusiastic amateur (ahem!) can be encouraged to sample 'difficult' pieces without being scared off by the 'd' word and if persuaded, similarly enthuse her or his chums?

Hmmm - too arbitrary a method of finding ones otherwise unguided (or more accurately mis-guided) way into this complex area, methinks.

Don't forget, we are longterm beneficiaries of the now dying embers of cultural enlightenment, courtesy Radio 3, Third Programme.

[amateur51]

Hmmm - too arbitrary a method of finding ones otherwise unguided (or more accurately mis-guided) way into this complex area, methinks.

Don't forget, we are longterm beneficiaries of the now dying embers of cultural enlightenment, courtesy Radio 3, Third Programme.

Oh arbitrary can be fun and anyway if you read a bit (CD inserts etc) around your new-found interest it can all be quite fruitful .. if arbitary

[Serial_Apologist]

Oh arbitrary can be fun and anyway if you read a bit (CD inserts etc) around your new-found interest it can all be quite fruitful .. if arbitary

I wouldn't like to be a Martian

[aeolium]

Hmmm - too arbitrary a method of finding ones otherwise unguided (or more accurately mis-guided) way into this complex area, methinks.

Don't forget, we are longterm beneficiaries of the now dying embers of cultural enlightenment, courtesy Radio 3, Third Programme.

S_A, there is a lecture by Professor Jonathan Cross called "The Beginner's Guide to Serialism" as part of this weekend's South Bank Centre feature on Berlin in the 20s and 30s:

http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/sit...013_berlin.pdf*

Not needed by cognoscenti like yourself, but beginners like me would find it useful. It's not often that arts organisations (can) mount a festival which attempts to bring together strands from different arts and ideas within an era but it can be very illuminating when it happens, so that people can see how musical developments are influenced by and influence other areas of the arts.

*sorry to mention another London event (and I'm not even usually there!)

[MrGongGong]

In order to undermine HG's position I think you need to do something like point to record sales in the hundreds of thousands - rather then the typical low hundreds or less.

So lets have the clapometer back then ?
Are you really suggesting that the "success" or not of ALL music is measured in how many units one shifts ?

I spent some of today writing a review of a book about electroacoustic music in educational contexts
the global sales of which will probably be measured in the 100's and most of them will be academic institutions
BUT
it's a fascinating, stimulating and rewarding world that many more people would love if they discovered it in the right context

If one uses popularity as a measure then more or less all "Classical Music" is a "failure" apart from things like Bolero, The Four Seasons and Paul Mealors latest offering

[teamsaint]

most popular music isn't very popular.

Its he Man Utd syndrome at work.
Even the popular isn't as popular as you might think.

[Ian]

So lets have the clapometer back then ?
Are you really suggesting that the "success" or not of ALL music is measured in how many units one shifts ?

I can't see that music has any other purpose other than to be valued (for whatever reason)

So it does sort of follow that any music that is valued to the extent that individuals are prepared to support it by putting their hand in their pocket is one measure of success.

Surely, if Serial music was a consistent best seller you would be happy to use that (hypothetical) fact to undermine HG's view point?

[Ian]

most popular music isn't very popular.

.

Indeed, even the the UK's best selling Cd has only sold a couple of million copies - a tiny fraction of the total population. But your point is?

[Ian]

Record sales or sales of tickets for concerts don't happen by magic: they are arrived at via marketing, advertising, promotion, and - as you say - control by vested interests. The vested interests in control are innately hostile to the complex, the difficult or the plain different. That applies just as well to non-classical music as it does to classical music. It doesn't mean that people wouldn't respond positively to "the complex, the difficult or the plain different." It means they don't want people to respond positively to them.

The endless repetition of the line that modern classical music is the preserve of an elitist clique, the John Adamses etc. have opened up the market is circular and self-fulfilling. Because the people who write and say these things control the market.

But are you taking into account that from at least 1967 (when I started to listen to R3) right through to the 80’s (during which period I spent six years as a music student [I only mention this to indicate a serious level of engagement]) Complex, difficult, or at least highly dissonant, modern music was, more or less, de rigueur. The consequence of this was that audiences where seriously put off the concept of modern music per se.

At the time, the on-message justification was that the audience was merely lagging behind, as is their wont, but no fear they would soon catch up. The problem was it didn’t quite work out like that - the ideological battles continue. But it is certainly not the case that “complex” “difficult” music hasn’t had its chance.

[MrGongGong]

I can't see that music has any other purpose other than to be valued (for whatever reason)

I can
It's nice when people like what you do
but not always essential
there can be other purposes

People liking something and paying for it IS a measure of success but not the only one

The consequence of this was that audiences where seriously put off the concept of modern music per se.

No they weren't
lots of people paid lots of money to listen to Zappa, Duran Duran, David Bowie etc they were "modern music"

[Ian]

People liking something and paying for it IS a measure of success but not the only one

Did I suggest otherwise?

[MrGongGong]

Did I suggest otherwise?

no

[Mr Pee]

No they weren't
lots of people paid lots of money to listen to Zappa, Duran Duran, David Bowie etc they were "modern music"

Mr GG, you repeatedly make the most ludicrous points in an attempt to back up your argument, whether it is stating that ALL recent composers have been influenced by serialism- and I notice you skirted around the Ronald Binge/Eric Coates point- and now lumping Bowie and Duran Duran into the pot, as if that somehow shows that if listeners like modern pop music, such as Duran Duran, therefore it follows, according to your bizarre logic, that they will also like serialist/ modern classical, which is patent nonsense.

I know your response to this will be that I didn't "READ" or am too dim to "UNDERSTAND" the point you're making. But that seems to be your default answer- you put forward a totally nonsensical view, and then when it is challenged, you back-pedal and say that is not actually what you meant- or just ignore it, as you did with the Binge/Coates argument.

You would do you cause rather more good if you didn't repeatedly overstate the case.

[MrGongGong]

MrPee
You completely failed to understand what I said before about how music was influenced by serialism
and it's not really worth trying to explain to you again and you seem to have difficultly with all but the most simple and concrete of language !

I was pointing out NOT that people who like "pop" music will automatically like serialist music I really don't know how you conclude that
merely that "modern" music takes many forms and is NOT confined even to Western Europe (which DOES include the UK )