Howard Goodall on BBC Two

[ahinton]

Moses und Aron could well do with being half as long again!

One third or so, surely?(!).

That said, I've never figured out why Schoenberg became so much sloppier and less particular about his orchestration in later years when scores of his former self Schönberg, such as Pelleas und Melisande, Gurrelieder and Erwartung, are so precisely thought out in such matters.

[ahinton]

Also sprach Zarathustra could do with ending after the organ chord in bar 18 (I think that's the place but don't have the score to hand)

The sad thing for everyone except the Richard Strauss Estate is that in most cases it does just that!...

[ahinton]

Elgar wrote only two sym... [we've been here before] ...

We have indeed - and, barring my one response that prompts yours here, we're not going there again, I trust!

[Pabmusic]

We have indeed - and, barring my one response that prompts yours here, we're not going there again, I trust!

What a good idea!

[Mary Chambers]

Warning: off-topic!

I enjoy reading ahinton's astonishingly long sentences, but they always remind me of the last part of Chapter 9 of Winnie-the-Pooh. Scroll right down (if you can be bothered) to the last two paragraphs, beginning at 'You can imagine Piglet's joy...'.

http://www.greeting-cards-4u.com/PooH/PooHBook/chap9.html

[ahinton]

Howard Goodall is giving us a personal Cook's Tour of classical music in a key weekend spot on television, he is not Hans Keller discussing tone rows. Sometimes the sheer snobbery and self righteousness on these boards is unbelievable ! By all means let's discuss the programmes, but on the understanding of what they are intended to be, an unpatronising approach to revealing some of the pleasure of music and how it's constructed.

Indeed so, but one does not have to evidence snobbery or a patronising attitude to note that some of what's presented is either disproportionate, misleading or plainly inaccurate (see my comments above about his treatment of Wagner).

[Bryn]

One third or so, surely?(!).

That said, I've never figured out why Schoenberg became so much sloppier and less particular about his orchestration in later years when scores of his former self Schönberg, such as Pelleas und Melisande, Gurrelieder and Erwartung, are so precisely thought out in such matters.

2 plus half a much again = 3.

[Ian]

Young RAM pianist Karim Said played a Schoenberg/Webern/Berg programme as part of 'The Rest Is Noise' Festival at London's South Bank recently.

It was sold out.

The times they are a-changing

Over a forty year period I have attended and supported loads of concerts of modern(ist) music (including serial music) - many have been (relatively) well attended. Despite this I have never felt that any of these (nearly always highly subsidised) concerts were any more than fringe/cult, off Broadway type events. However, I don’t live in London (pop. 14 million) where it is obviously going to be a lot easier to find respectable audiences for almost anything.

BTW, another problem surrounding modern(ist) music is the intense defensiveness that surrounds it. Demonstrated by the fact, that one can’t have individual, personal views (for example thinking that Schoenberg’s music is consistently and precisely one third too long) without being diagnosed as having some sort of problem.

[Ian]

Young RAM pianist Karim Said played a Schoenberg/Webern/Berg programme as part of 'The Rest Is Noise' Festival at London's South Bank recently.

It was sold out.

The times they are a-changing

When exactly was this concert? Can't find any information about it.

[Pabmusic]

...BTW, another problem surrounding modern(ist) music is the intense defensiveness that surrounds it. Demonstrated by the fact, that one can’t have individual, personal views (for example thinking that Schoenberg’s music is consistently and precisely one third too long) without being diagnosed as having some sort of problem.

Well said. Howard Goodall's problem was that he didn't bargain for this thread. He is obviously trying to be inclusive in his history, and I note that we have already had references to a wide variety of music - the next episode looks like it will include even more. It is against this background that some of these comments about serialism have to be considered. "Serial technique and modified serial processes are what ALL composers since have been influenced by and use in various ways" (to take just one) is laughable in the context of Billie Holliday, Bob Dylan and the Beatles (who apparently feature in the next episode), let alone Eric Coates, Ronald Binge or Leroy Anderson - and that's before you add in any 'classical' composers.

[Julien Sorel]

BTW, another problem surrounding modern(ist) music is the intense defensiveness that surrounds it. Demonstrated by the fact, that one can’t have individual, personal views (for example thinking that Schoenberg’s music is consistently and precisely one third too long) without being diagnosed as having some sort of problem.

Who has diagnosed you as having some sort of problem? I can't see it's a very interesting thing to say, because it's so non-specific: you could say it about anything ("the problem I have with Rimsky-Korsakov's music is that it is consistently and precisely one third too long" etc.) Is there something intrinsic to the construction of Schoenberg's music which makes it consistently one third too long or is that just what you feel whenever you hear it? The first might be open to discussion, the second is just oh really fancy that?

I think you've got it the wrong way round. People are queuing up to lament the inaccessibility of the kind of modernist or contemporary music they don't approve of while advertising their own wares as listener-centred. Personally whenever I hear the music described as accessible, written with the audience in mind, and so on, I want to jump off the nearest roof: and saying that's what composers did in the past (which is a fairly partial truth, since a lot of the more interesting ones tended to overstep the boundaries of accessibility while developing their music) doesn't make the new supposedly meta-accessible stuff any more interesting to me.

I don't jump off the nearest roof, though: I just listen to the stuff that interests me. Virtually all classical music (if that's what we are talking about) gets some form of public subsidy. An orchestra commissioning accessible modern composer X will also be a recipient of subsidy. Why don't you just listen to the stuff you like and ignore the stuff you don't? (after a few listens, of course).

Works for me .

[amateur51]

When exactly was this concert? Can't find any information about it.

I'll dig out my programme & post details later

[MrGongGong]

"Serial technique and modified serial processes are what ALL composers since have been influenced by and use in various ways" (to take just one) is laughable in the context of Billie Holliday, Bob Dylan and the Beatles .

So I guess then that taking The Beatles as one of your examples there's NO influence from the European Avant Garde then ?

You must have a very busy time going around with a black marker pen scribbling over Karlheinz on the cover of Sargent Pepper (in a Soviet stylee trying to rewrite history)........

You have obviously also Never used a recording studio ...........

[Pabmusic]

...You have obviously also Never used a recording studio ...........

Oh ... [Damascus-road moment] ... and there was I thinking that electronic gizmos arose out of the natural development of technology, plus enquiring minds. Now I know it was down to serial technique and modified serial processes.

I'm still looking for the serial influence in Ronald Binge, though.

[MrGongGong]

Oh ... [Damascus-road moment] ... and there was I thinking that electronic gizmos arose out of the natural development of technology, plus enquiring minds. Now I know it was down to serial technique and modified serial processes.

I'm still looking for the serial influence in Ronald Binge, though.

TRY READING what people say
you seem to be struggling with ideas and how the IDEA of something affects how people subsequently think

as well as saying that the processes of serialism have nothing to do with the development of the technologies used to create music ?



(and Milton Babbit spins in his grave again )