Howard Goodall on BBC Two

[Bert Coules]

I was a little surprised (though perhaps I shouldn't have been) at the general anti-Wagner stance in the latest programme. According to Goodall, not only is there absolutely nothing in Wagner that hadn't been done by Liszt and others first, but the later composer and all his works would have been forgotten by all but the most die-hard opera fans if it hadn't been for his "direct influence" on the Nazis.

Though taken to a new extreme, Goodall presented pretty much the usual line on Wagner's anti-semitism, supported by pretty much the usual sloppy, generalised and unsupported "facts". It was an unfortunate blight on what had up to then been an interesting show.

[JFLL]

I was a little surprised that ... according to Goodall, there is absolutely nothing in Wagner that hadn't been done by Liszt and others first,

Funny, I wasn't aware that Liszt wrote any music-dramas ... Perhaps Wagner needn't have bothered, then.

[Roehre]

Funny, I wasn't aware that Liszt wrote any music-dramas ... Perhaps Wagner needn't have bothered, then.

One youth work only: Don Sanche ou le Chateau d'Amour (opera in 1 act) S.1 (1824), just under an hour and a half.

[mercia]

I found HG's 7-point list of Liszt's innovations very interesting, especially showing that 12-tone technique occurs in the Faust Symphony

I think my interpretation of his comments on Wagner was that there is no particular harmonic innovation in Wagner e.g. diminished and augmented chords and chromaticism existed before Wagner. He suggested that too much attention is given to the Tristan Chord.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I found HG's 7-point list of Liszt's innovations very interesting, especially showing that 12-tone technique occurs in the Faust Symphony

He couldn't've shown this, as it's not true and, if this is what he said he has no idea what "12-tone technique" is.

The opening of the Faust Symphony consists of three descending augmented triads, which, naturally, present the twelve notes of the chromatic scale - as does a chromatic scale, but that doesn't mean that Bach's Chromatic Fantasia "shows an occurence of 12-note technique".

This is the problem with giving such an important series to any individual: the gaps and weaknesses in that individual's knowledge and understanding leads them inevitably to make inaccurate and even false statements that, because it's on the telly, become "true" for the general public. This slovenly type of presentation just wouldn't get past the planning stage of any other subject. On BBC4, there is a three-hour series devoted to the Hundred Years' War, presented by a distinguished academic who consults other distinguished academics and experts to explore the ideas she presents and does so in an informative and relaxed manner. Why aren't Music topics treated with the same respect and courtesy?

[mercia]

He couldn't've shown this, as it's not true and, if this is what he said he has no idea what "12-tone technique" is.

sorry, I (obviously) misunderstood what was being claimed on Liszt's behalf

and then paraphrased it incorrectly

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

sorry, I (obviously) misunderstood what was being claimed on Liszt's behalf

and then paraphrased it incorrectly

But, mercs, you aren't an ignoramus - you're an intelligent bloke with an interest in these things. If Goodall is making claims and statements that lead you to think this way, then what chance the average man-on-the-jury?

You have no need to apologise.

[Mahler's3rd]

I've found the series interesting so far, though I agree with Bert Coules, I think Howard Goodall over played the "Anti Wagner" stance. Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting for one minute that Wagner was a nice guy, and his writings and opinion's on "anti-semitism", are in my view distasteful and out of order. However he certainly was'nt on his own before or since in his view's. History has been littered with such opinions, one of the greatest "Composer/Pianist's" thats ever lived held a similar view, though the mere mention of his name leads people to swoon in delight. Similar accusations have been leveled at some "High Profile" Orchestra's have they not in the past? And that's not right either. However a lot of "Wagner documentary footage", for want of a better phrase does tend to focus on the "Bad" side of him rather than his obvious genius at Music Drama's. What does everyone else think?

[Barbirollians]

Did he make the point that RO once fairly made which was Wagnerians tended to give Berlioz nowhere near enough credit for his innovations in music drama .

[Bert Coules]

Not in so many words, though he did include Berlioz in his list of "people who'd done it all before". The comments he did make on Wagner's admirers were certainly sneering: "Whatever they try to tell you, Wagner didn't invent the leitmotif system," and similar. I suppose in a way it's as much of a generalisation as Goodall's own comment, but I don't recall that particular claim being made very often or very widely.

Everything was slanted: Wagner fans weren't just enthusiasts, they were fanatics; Parsifal wasn't about religion it was about racial purity; the composer wasn't merely anti-semitic, his views were more extreme than anyone else's, to the point of genocide; since we know what he was like and what he believed, it's impossible to listen to Wagner without feeling uncomfortable.

All presented with the force of Goodall's charming personality and the power of his position as a TV "expert", and all not only rubbish but damaging, pestilent rubbish.

Bert

[Barbirollians]

There a quite a few fanatics amongst Wagnerians though ! Far from all however.

[Bert Coules]

There a quite a few fanatics amongst Wagnerians though !

You won't get any argument from me on that score. I've met a good few of them over the years.

Far from all however.

Exactly: that's the key point. Wagner detractors often seem to be as one-track minded and inflexible as they claim the composer (and his works) to be. The sad thing is that Goodall could have used his personality and insight to present a really interesting and well-rounded picture of the various Wagner controversies, but chose instead to take the easier, predictable, unproductive path.

Bert

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

to be fair did he not make the point that Wagner was just astonishingly good at using techniques, created the best tunes/melodies, put it all together better than any one else and had a grand unifying vision of the artistic experience ....

[Bert Coules]

Radio 3 this morning was trailing his TV series as "a personal view": but how is a general audience to differentiate between Goodall's opinions and actuality? I remember Stephen Fry's Wagner documentary a year or so back which was also made from a very personal standpoint but which nonetheless managed to be entirely fair and clear in its presentation of different attitudes and opinions. OK, Fry had more time (and started from a far more positive attitude to his subject) but the contrast with Goodall's programme was very marked.

Bert

[Pabmusic]

Radio 3 this morning was trailing his TV series as "a personal view": but how is a general audience to differentiate between Goodall's opinions and actuality? I remember Stephen Fry's Wagner documentary a year or so back which was also made from a very personal standpoint but which nonetheless managed to be entirely fair and clear in its presentation of different attitudes and opinions. OK, Fry had more time (and started from a far more positive attitude to his subject) but the contrast with Goodall's programme was very marked.

Bert

This is nothing new, since HG goes trough the same spiel at the beginning of every episode, making it clear that it is his view among a million that could be taken.