Howard Goodall on BBC Two

[Nick Armstrong]

Yes indeed they did and I think I agree with them but how then are we to view 12th C rayonnement where they journey from France to Southern Spain and Italy in 100 years? Sorry, I am not quite getting this point. Was it a case of coals to Newcastle?

Maybe after the reconquista, after the Arabs themselves had been pushed back from Iberia? That must have led to European influence moving southward again, through Spain and Portugal....

[Lateralthinking1]

Maybe after the reconquista, after the Arabs themselves had been pushed back from Iberia?

Perhaps but I am not wholly sure about that theory. It was a broad sweep to the south west and to the south east from Southern France and included what is now northern Italy. The two stories appear to sit side by side contradictorily. What is it I am missing?

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Troubadour.html

[Nick Armstrong]

Perhaps but I am not wholly sure

I don't imagine anyone is, or indeed could be, wholly sure what happened...

[Lateralthinking1]

I don't imagine anyone is, or indeed could be, wholly sure what happened...

So to the second round of questions (of two), how do we get to Josquin? 450 guys and women - for that quite extraordinarily was the total number of them according to academics - were singing about secular life a good way round a hefty chunk of the EU . A few of them might have been descended from Arabic Muslims taken prisoner by a William although they might equally have hailed from Aquitaine. In the case of the latter theory, they are actually travelling away from the French/German border, not towards it.

How are they discovered by the Church's greatest musicians and then made so influential? I raise these questions as they are of interest to me. If in modern parlance there is a link between folk/world and classical music, it would be useful to have as much information as other people know. Just as a footnote, I like his programme and am not criticising it although his new CD is horrible.

[Richard Tarleton]

Maybe after the reconquista, after the Arabs themselves had been pushed back from Iberia? That must have led to European influence moving southward again, through Spain and Portugal....

Just as a footnote to this discussion (and thank you for that link Lat), the Reconquista began very soon after the initial Arab conquest, with the battles of Covadonga and Poitiers marking the furthest extents of Arab advance, and could be said to have lasted for 770 years - for much of that time political and cultural borders in Spain were very fluid, with much cross-fertilisation. There was never a huge Arab military presence in Spain. The sleeve notes to Hesperion XX's España Antigua (Lat's posts have inspired me to find out a lot more ) point out the importance of the pilgrimages to Santiago and Monserrat in the process of cultural interchange.

[Lateralthinking1]

Just as a footnote to this discussion (and thank you for that link Lat), the Reconquista began very soon after the initial Arab conquest, with the battles of Covadonga and Poitiers marking the furthest extents of Arab advance, and could be said to have lasted for 770 years - for much of that time political and cultural borders in Spain were very fluid, with much cross-fertilisation. There was never a huge Arab military presence in Spain. The sleeve notes to Hesperion XX's España Antigua (Lat's posts have inspired me to find out a lot more ) point out the importance of the pilgrimages to Santiago and Monserrat in the process of cultural interchange.

Without wishing to sound patronising, I find that response pleasing. Coming more from an understanding of popular culture, I watched the programme knowing that it would teach me new things about classical music. Questions arose in my mind during the programme. They were with the understanding that others with expertise in the field might or might not have all the answers. One advantage of knowing comparatively little about a subject is that the different angle might prompt questions not normally asked.

On this one, I am in my thinking in the areas of history and folk/world music. They are things that have been personally relevant to me whereas other people will be very much 'in the zone' of music's early development. If some in that zone find that the questions almost inadvertently encourage them to seek new information, based on their extensive knowledge, and to get something out of it themselves, I'm delighted. And if the rest of us with less knowledge then get feedback to broaden our knowledge, it is win-win.

[doversoul1]

Is it ?



This is a piece from the Honkyoku repertoire (approximately 13th cent)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honkyoku

Why one might need notation says a lot about the organisation of a culture and it's view of itself in the world, but that's part of the unmade series about music that looks at it in a more global context.

What is the source of this document? I am curious because:
a) As far as I know, performing arts in Japan were traditionally passed down from a master to apprentices personally, which was regarded as part of training. Also, ‘the secret’ of the art was often strictly kept within each school. Writing down the music was not only not necessary but in some cases, seen as against the rule.

b) The copied document strikes me as distinctly modern. Genuine document from 13th century would be on a role of paper. This looks to me very much a sheet of A4 paper. Moreover, the writing looks, again distinctly, that of by non-native writer. It suggests (to me) that this is a note made by a modern-day, non-native learner for his/her own use as it is little more than an equivalent to ‘dee dum tralala…’ A reminder of the rhythm of the music, as the title says.

As you say, it is a different culture. Dissemination of music was not in their interest.


Sorry, back to Goodall.

[Mahler's3rd]

Thought it was good, overall presentation was excellent, looking forward to the next part

[MrGongGong]

What is the source of this document? I am curious because:
a) As far as I know, performing arts in Japan were traditionally passed down from a master to apprentices personally, which was regarded as part of training. Also, ‘the secret’ of the art was often strictly kept within each school. Writing down the music was not only not necessary but in some cases, seen as against the rule.

b) The copied document strikes me as distinctly modern. Genuine document from 13th century would be on a role of paper. This looks to me very much a sheet of A4 paper. Moreover, the writing looks, again distinctly, that of by non-native writer. It suggests (to me) that this is a note made by a modern-day, non-native learner for his/her own use as it is little more than an equivalent to ‘dee dum tralala…’ A reminder of the rhythm of the music, as the title says.

As you say, it is a different culture. Dissemination of music was not in their interest.


Sorry, back to Goodall.

It's a while since I learnt Shakuhachi notation this is a modern copy of an old piece
but this is useful

http://api.ning.com/files/pSOfkoywrRcd0t*1NALJ8ZmhEIgHfHlKxnutI5Lb-tZPsYfnpA1g4WEd-bBPYIjisFosRNAG1S9jxh9Okp2qGZYy0ltYaVY3/theshakuhachiandthekinkoryunotation.pdf

The notation dates from the Nara period (AD 710 to 794)

This also is the equivalent of 'dee dum tralala'



from my sitar lessons I learnt that notation is NOT necessarily a marker of a sophisticated music
though I thought in the programme he navigated fairly well

[doversoul1]

Mr GG
You say ‘the notation dates from the Nara period (AD 710 to 794)’. If you mean the document you posted, it is not notation. It is written in words as is 'dee dum tralala' which can be read/read aloud by anyone who is literate in the language but the reader can read it at any speed or pitch. That is the very point Goodall was making about the advantage of musical notation. And I don’t need to read 40 odd pages about a musical instrument to know that the document is modern and written by a non-native writer. You might say it’s got foreign accent. But I’m sure it is very useful, as it is a type of learning aid.

from my sitar lessons I learnt that notation is NOT necessarily a marker of a sophisticated music
though I thought in the programme he navigated fairly well

What made you think that notation is a mark of sophisticated music? It helped to make Western classical music more sophisticated that it had been before, which was what Goodall said. You don’t always need to bring in shakuhachi and sitar to enjoy Monteverdi. Relax, I’d say.

[MrGongGong]

Mr GG
You say ‘the notation dates from the Nara period (AD 710 to 794)’. If you mean the document you posted, it is not notation. It is written in words as is 'dee dum tralala' which can be read/read aloud by anyone who is literate in the language but the reader can read it at any speed or pitch. That is the very point Goodall was making about the advantage of musical notation. And I don’t need to read 40 odd pages about a musical instrument to know that the document is modern and written by a non-native writer. You might say it’s got foreign accent. But I’m sure it is very useful, as it is a type of learning aid.

eerm
Of course it's notation , Shakuhachi notation is of the type that is a series of instructions telling you WHAT to do (Like lute tablature)
i'm a bit rusty as it was many years ago
It's a modern version but so is my copy of the Beethoven piano sonatas

If you read the article I linked you would read (and I think there's something in the Willaim Malm book as well) that the notation system went back that far NOT that specific instance !
I never said that that specific page was ancient , I'm a little puzzled that you seem to question the idea that there are other notational systems in the world ?

I was simply questioning this statement

But it's the ability to write this down and play it centuries later that distinguishes Western music.

which simply isn't the thing that distinguishes Western music , there are things that do but not this

[Pabmusic]

eerm
Of course it's notation , Shakuhachi notation is of the type that is a series of instructions telling you WHAT to do (Like lute tablature)...I'm a little puzzled that you seem to question the idea that there are other notational systems in the world ?

I was simply questioning this statement

But it's the ability to write this down and play it centuries later that distinguishes Western music.

which simply isn't the thing that distinguishes Western music , there are things that do but not this

Problem is, Mr GG, you've been guilty of quote mining in order to be able to deliver the killer punch:

It [ie: the Japanese notation] does contradict what you said though.......

But I never said that other notations never existed. The paragraph immediately following the sentence you quote said:

There were other written systems - Goodall showed one from the Greeks - but their secrets have been lost. And there are various types of tablature used now (for instance by members of gamelans here in the Philippines) but they tend to be little more than the equivalent of the chord symbols written above the text that some buskers use - and in any case they have now absorbed so much 'Western' style that it's difficult to identify what is truly old.

Which seems to apply well enough to the Japanese example you posted, especially as I conceded that not all secrets had been lost.

As for complexity, I never said other music could not be complex (as I am sure any bell-ringer will agree) and your example of ragas is a good one. But it is nevertheless true that Western music often (usually?) is able to have complexity of a different order of magnitude, that a stranger with no knowledge of the composer or his culture can play it. And it is surely beyond argument that Western notation has allowed that.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well, he set out his stall at the very start: "There are a million different ways of telling the Story of Music. This is mine." I thought it was a good programme given the limits of its remit (the time allowed; explaining to the general listener) - and Goodall's TV persona is lightly engaging without being irritating. Yes, had it been my "way of telling the story of Music", there would have been considerable differences - more time on the different types of Plainchant (Why did it get the overall soubriquet "Gregorian Chant"? Why were the Octave, Fourths and Fifths called "perfect"? why were these intervals only permitted in early Church Music?) - much more time on Dunstable (probably the most influential English composer ever - and for more than just "introducing" Thirds!) - more time on the influences from Islam (not just the "Moorish" Music from Spain) - and, perhaps above all, some time on pre-equal temperament Tuning systems: the way he presented his illustrations on a modern keyboard as if Music was always thus was unnecessary (and jarred with the Tunings of the "real" performers).

But that would require more time than the hour he dashed through - necessarily simplifying complex ideas. Which is why I preferred his C4 series Big Bangs: an hour on a single topic, covered in much more detail, rather than this rushed approach. And, of course, Goodall "sees" Music primarily in terms of Harmony and melody: Texture is a decoration/elaboration for him, arising out of Harmony, whereas some of us (like Perotin) regard Harmony as arising out of contrapuntal strands - certainly in this era of Western Music History.

Enjoyable and informative, I shall continue to watch: after all, the Beeb didn't ask me to do the series!

[Old Grumpy]

Items by/on some of the composers featured in the accompanying R3 series "The Story of Music in 50 Pieces" are now up on the R3 site:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0147b49

The short items comprising The Story of Music in 50 Pieces are available to download as podcasts.


OG

[ardcarp]

Did I spot our own Chris Watson singing in a short extract of Messiah in tonight's episode? If so, I hope you get a repeat fee, Chris.