Howard Goodall on BBC Two

[JFLL]

The responses seem to be in two categories, not one.

1. Classical music people who do not like Goodall linking classical music to pop music and could be perceived by some as elitist

but also

2. Pop music fans - whatever pop music is - who resent the idea of such links and consider him to be elitist and misinformed..

Ha! Just shows what a nebulous concept 'elitism' is.

[Pabmusic]

Ha! Just shows what a nebulous concept 'elitism' is.

It's an idea that is itself elitist, because it is used to protect one group against another by excluding people. It's one of music's worst traits that it encourages lovers to defend their particular favourites by attacking others'.

[Serial_Apologist]

If his main argument is that the classics are the roots of most pop music, he will need to address the black roots of much of it and also the white folk music roots to convince.

But if he is saying that there are similar patterns in each, and arguably some elements of influence in the former on the latter because the former came first, that is different.

I'm at a similar disadvantage to you on this subject, Lat, while similarly motivated to get to the bottom of all this.

One of the implications of what you seem to be saying here was raised by Goodall at the point where he implied - to me at least - that (by implication again) white European folk music had acquired what we today would consider its folkish harmonies in the 15th century, at which point harmony became more varied, expanded beyond its earlier foundations built primarily on fourths and fifths, to include major and minor thirds and so on. He also made the point that sacred music - if you will, the forerunner of what we think of as the classical heritage - and secular music, had both shared many of the same melodies in an ongoing process of interaction, intermittently interrupted by attempts by church authorities to prevent contamination of the former by the latter.

That's as regards the roots of white European folk music, if one ignores the proviso offered by Euan McColl's and Peggy Seeger's later tracings of common links with folk musics right across Europe and beyond, filling out Bartok's earlier researches. (Bartok became friendly with a Scottish composer (with whom he stayed and whose name currently escapes me) who was given to treating Scottish folk melodies in a manner similarly radical to how Bartok was treating folk materials from the Balkan region; in diary writings (which were posted by someone most helpfully on the old BBC board) Bartok noted similarities between the two traditions. When it comes to considering influences from black musical traditions on western pop music we're talking about something separate, coming from a different direction, and in terms of recent impact - though of course we can say we all came ultimately from Africa; but it is a much more interrupted continuum in the latter case. Possibly (dare one say) the recent influence of African folk musics in Afro Pop (Osibisa etc) have been more easily assimilated by virtue of the "contamination" of African music by European harmony. But a lot more of such contamination had occurred in the meantime in the development of jazz in America: and there, in particular since the late 40s (Afro-Cuban) we see powerful attempts by African Americans to reclaim continuities predating slavery.

It's all very, very complex!

[Lateralthinking1]

I'm at a similar disadvantage to you on this subject, Lat, while similarly motivated to get to the bottom of all this.

One of the implications of what you seem to be saying here was raised by Goodall at the point where he implied - to me at least - that (by implication again) white European folk music had acquired what we today would consider its folkish harmonies in the 15th century, at which point harmony became more varied, expanded beyond its earlier foundations built primarily on fourths and fifths, to include major and minor thirds and so on. He also made the point that sacred music - if you will, the forerunner of what we think of as the classical heritage - and secular music, had both shared many of the same melodies in an ongoing process of interaction, intermittently interrupted by attempts by church authorities to prevent contamination of the former by the latter.

That's as regards the roots of white European folk music, if one ignores the proviso offered by Euan McColl's and Peggy Seeger's later tracings of common links with folk musics right across Europe and beyond, filling out Bartok's earlier researches. (Bartok became friendly with a Scottish composer (with whom he stayed and whose name currently escapes me) who was given to treating Scottish folk melodies in a manner similarly radical to how Bartok was treating folk materials from the Balkan region; in diary writings (which were posted by someone most helpfully on the old BBC board) Bartok noted similarities between the two traditions. When it comes to considering influences from black musical traditions on western pop music we're talking about something separate, coming from a different direction, and in terms of recent impact - though of course we can say we all came ultimately from Africa; but it is a much more interrupted continuum in the latter case. Possibly (dare one say) the recent influence of African folk musics in Afro Pop (Osibisa etc) have been more easily assimilated by virtue of the "contamination" of African music by European harmony. But a lot more of such contamination had occurred in the meantime in the development of jazz in America: and there, in particular since the late 40s (Afro-Cuban) we see powerful attempts by African Americans to reclaim continuities predating slavery.

It's all very, very complex!

I think you should be doing Howard's series, Serial! You have provided a very good framework for further understanding and discussion. Sacred music was pan-European and more wasn't it - the Netherlands, Italy and so on - and I don't know to what extent MacColl and Seeger worked deeply on those lines? Additionally, I don't know to what extent the British and Scandinavian composers who collected folk songs in the early 1900s and compared notes were groundbreaking? Further east, of course, people like Gliere were said to be ethnomusicologists although many think that the label was just one given by the Russian state.

I recognise your description of Osibisa. If ever there was 'Afro-Pop' in a western sense in the 1970s, Osibisa are your example. At the same time,they were British Ghanaians (and Caribbeans). They came here. Some of them may have been born in London which isn't to say that colonialism is irrelevant but they were more about post-colonialism. None of my comments necessarily get to the substance of Goodall's programme but they do provide some colour. I am looking forward to the moment when he manages to combine in a sentence Bartok, the Proclaimers, Gogol Bordello and Peter Maxwell Davies. Is the latter indeed the missing link?

[Nick Armstrong]

I too thought is was excellent. I switched on the television with some trepidation that it was going to be another case of gross dumbing down, but HG presented the whole thing thoughtfully and intelligently.

Agreed so far. Haven't been able to watch the whole thing yet, but I was hooked when hearing the Lurs found in Denmark. They sound like the tenor horns in Mahler 7 &c...

And the trivia addict in me loved the titbit that Lurpak butter (a constant in the fridge at Château Caliban) is named after their famous ( I'd never heard of them) discovery... I had no idea!

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Thropplenoggin can you not tune your digi box satellite dish thing to freeview? [guarantee every dish in Southern Spain is pointing at Sky UK just need a good pal to provide a uk address fr the decoder card etc & billing]]

[Thropplenoggin]

Thropplenoggin can you not tune your digi box satellite dish thing to freeview? [guarantee every dish in Southern Spain is pointing at Sky UK just need a good pal to provide a uk address fr the decoder card etc & billing]]

It's possible - I'd never thought of this. The other way is to use a proxy IP address and do it through the computer.

[doversoul1]

I think it is really quite unfair of the experts on this Forum to criticise this programme for missing this, that or the other. This is clearly not a programme aimed at those who know the history and theories of Western Classical music (and beyond) back to front. Its main target is for those who enjoy classical music and have probably read bits and pieces along the way but never had a chance to put things in perspective and to see how things are (may be) connected (I speak for myself). Most viewers are probably happy to leave it as it is but some will go and find out more.

Originally Posted by Caliban

And the trivia addict in me loved the titbit that Lurpak butter (a constant in the fridge at Château Caliban) is named after their famous ( I'd never heard of them) discovery... I had no idea!

I think an irrelevant piece of information like this can stir up people’s imagination and curiosity far more than any facts and figures.

[Mr Pee]

I think it is really quite unfair of the experts on this Forum to criticise this programme for missing this, that or the other. This is clearly not a programme aimed at those who know the history and theories of Western Classical music (and beyond) back to front. Its main target is for those who enjoy classical music and have probably read bits and pieces along the way but never had a chance to put things in perspective and to see how things are (may be) connected (I speak for myself). Most viewers are probably happy to leave it as it is but some will go and find out more.

Spot on.

[french frank]

I thought the general tenor of the comments had been favourable though?

[To discuss salted and unsalted, please go the Refreshment Room...]

[teamsaint]

It has been useful to see expert opinion on the board ,as to where there may be understandable gaps, so that we can look further for ourselves.
I have been interested for a while in connections between folk and Classical musics, and posts by S-A and others have been very illuminating, whilst not undermining the positive effect of the show.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

just watched it through on iPlayer and must agree with doversoul and the generally very favourable commentary above

without affectation, without a hint of condescension, the history of music as technique perhaps but all the better for that imv ... and i have never before 'got' Monteverdi so ta Howard i am hooked!

[teamsaint]

just watched it through on iPlayer and must agree with doversoul and the generally very favourable commentary above

without affectation, without a hint of condescension, the history of music as technique perhaps but all the better for that imv ... and i have never before 'got' Monteverdi so ta Howard i am hooked!

glad you said that about the Monteverdi, jazzer, Love the Vespers, but never really seen or heard the operas, but they are deffo on a list now.....

[JFLL]

... without affectation, without a hint of condescension ...

Yes, I was favourably impressed with that too -- and he can express himself without feeling the need to wave his arms about (unless conducting, of course), which to me is the bane of all too many programmes on the arts these days.

[Old Grumpy]

Yes, I was favourably impressed with that too -- and he can express himself without feeling the need to wave his arms about (unless conducting, of course), which to me is the bane of all too many programmes on the arts these days.

That apparently was commented on in one of the broadsheets (? Torygraph) according to SMP on Breakfast this morning.

OG