Howard Goodall on BBC Two

[Dave2002]

Maybe this would be worth watching. Just started - 9.30pm.

[jean]

I thought he made a pretty good job of it.

(Am I going to regret saying that?)

[Dave2002]

I thought he made a pretty good job of it.

(Am I going to regret saying that?)

I thought it was excellent, so no complaints from me.

[Serial_Apologist]

A few gaps, and it did seem a tad "Eurocentric". Are "Western" composers the only original source of notation? I'd really like to know! Anyway one learned one or two things too: I'd never heard any Perotain - only read of his significance; I think he rather glossed things over at this stage, playing dissonant complexes of chords in Perotain, then later in the story claiming that harmony was effectively restricted to fourths and fifth until ca 1400 seemed to contradict; and the "story" he presented of how the main melodic line in early polyphonic music rose to the top from the centre of the texture was new to me.

[ahinton]

A whole lot better than I feared - at least until he skipped over almost all of the 16th century between Dunstable (good little plug for him) until Dowland; no Palestrina, no Victoria and no plenty of others, most notably the English composers Tye, Weelkes, Gibbons et al but most especially Tallis and Byrd, the avoidance of all mention of whom seemed to me to undermine the entire principle of what Goodall was apparently seeking to do. Apparently, we're next onto Vivaldi, Bach and Handel, so I wonder who else is going to get overlooked from the 17th century. OK, you can't cover everyone and everything in a series such and this, but the grave omissions so far give scant cause for confidence...

[ahinton]

A few gaps, and it did seem a tad "Eurocentric". Are "Western" composers the only original source of notation? I'd really like to know! Anyway one learned one or two things too: I'd never heard any Perotain - only read of his significance; I think he rather glossed things over at this stage, playing dissonant complexes of chords in Perotain, then later in the story claiming that harmony was effectively restricted to fourths and fifth until ca 1400 seemed to contradict; and the "story" he presented of how the main melodic line in early polyphonic music rose to the top from the centre of the texture was new to me.

The references to Pérotin were surely unavoidable, yet the lack even of passing mention of his forebear Léonin seemed to me to undermine even that.

[Dave2002]

Compared to the programme about steam power and invention a few nights ago this was an A performance. I actually did enjoy that programme about steam engines, turbines and generators (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/bigscre...nvention_Power), but the type of engines described work on different principles from high pressure engines used for steam locomotives. It would have been quite easy to point this out, and perhaps also to mention a very early form of turbine due to Hero of Alexandria. So that was a factual and interesting programme which could have been better with just a bit more care and attention to detail and historical context. Sometimes though I think it's better to be grateful for what we do get. Consider the amount of money which is "wasted" by broadcasters on programmes such as Eastenders, Coronation Street, quiz shows and even period dramas such as Downton Abbey which now seems to be degenerating into a sort of up market soap opera, and it does seem sad that there aren't so many factual programmes which have the same care and funding lavished upon them.

[Serial_Apologist]

The references to Pérotin were surely unavoidable, yet the lack even of passing mention of his forebear Léonin seemed to me to undermine even that.

And aren't there rather a lot of thirds in Machaut - or is it just that I am "hearing" them as thirds?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I too thought is was excellent. I switched on the television with some trepidation that it was going to be another case of gross dumbing down, but HG presented the whole thing thoughtfully and intelligently.

[MrGongGong]

I also thought it was well done
the danger of any TV thats about something you know a bit about is that one sits there going NO NO NO
but this was a clear and interestingly put together sequence

He did almost assume that equal temperament had been in existence for ever , but the nuances of tuning systems are a bit of a niche for most folk anyway !
I expected it to be Eurocentric and to ignore the rest of the world which means that there's a great series to be made with a global context !
When is an invention a discovery I wonder ?

but good stuff all in all

also there is always the danger of presenting a history as a process of "improvement" and he managed to avoid that quite well I think

[Bryn]

HG did a fine 'Big Bang' programme on the history of temperament. He may well cover it next week when dealing with the period of its introduction.

[Mr Pee]

A whole lot better than I feared - at least until he skipped over almost all of the 16th century between Dunstable (good little plug for him) until Dowland; no Palestrina, no Victoria and no plenty of others, most notably the English composers Tye, Weelkes, Gibbons et al but most especially Tallis and Byrd, the avoidance of all mention of whom seemed to me to undermine the entire principle of what Goodall was apparently seeking to do. Apparently, we're next onto Vivaldi, Bach and Handel, so I wonder who else is going to get overlooked from the 17th century. OK, you can't cover everyone and everything in a series such and this, but the grave omissions so far give scant cause for confidence...

Exactly.

[ahinton]

Exactly.

But to omit even mention of the entire swathe of English immediate pre-Elizabethan, Elizabethan and immediate post-Elizabethan composers - including Tallis and Byrd, two of England's finest from any era - does seem very strange indeed.

[jean]

...no Palestrina, no Victoria and no plenty of others, most notably the English composers Tye, Weelkes, Gibbons et al but most especially Tallis and Byrd, the avoidance of all mention of whom seemed to me to undermine the entire principle of what Goodall was apparently seeking to do...

But it was a very brief overview, and after he'd dealt with the shift from a modal to a diatonic underpinning via the major/minor third (is it really that simple?) with Dunstable, and the beginnings of imitative polyphony as he he illustrated by Josquin, there wasn't anything really new (of the sort of new he was focussing on) in the work of the great High Renaissance composers.

As for equal temperament - isn't he just avoiding any mention of it until he gets to the dominance of the keyboard?

[Pabmusic]

A few gaps, and it did seem a tad "Eurocentric". Are "Western" composers the only original source of notation? I'd really like to know!...

Yes, it really does seem this is the case. It's one of the greatest achievements of European culture.