Now I've seen it all

[french frank]

"Classical Music" often does itself no favours at all by creating impressions that somehow it's a secret club or that one needs to "understand" it.

I'm not sure how that differs, though, from any other enthusiasm. People who are really keen want to learn more, want to understand, want to delve deeper. People who have less of an involvement don't. And in one sense people who are knowledgeable are more intense and "in a different place" from those who don't. Fans can be hugely knowledgeable about football or cricket too. Those who just go to an occasional match on a fine day can't keep up with pub conversation.

[ahinton]

I think it's important to realise that those of us who are more than a little obsessed with music in it's myriad of forms and had the kinds of experience that many write about are in a tiny minority of the population.
"Classical Music" often does itself no favours at all by creating impressions that somehow it's a secret club or that one needs to "understand" it.

I couldn't agree more. Firstly, those who listen frequently to "Western classical music" are indeed in a minority - but then there had been a time when I was not a member of that minority as I'd never heard any and didn't even know what it was! The point, however, is that the music itself can be instrumental (sorry!) in generating that obsession and those kinds of experience, as indeed the best of it should - and such obsession and experiences recognises and is subject to no inherent boundary restrictions, be they of "class", background or any other besides sheer unavailability (which is less of an issue than ever today).

Of course "Classical Music" would do itself no favours at all by creating impressions that somehow it's a secret club or that one needs to "understand" it, but then it doesn't do so and it isn't true; only a handful of snobs with a particular agenda do it and it is these people who do such music (and themselves and the rest of us, for that matter) "no favours". If it was good enough for Schönberg to undermine any overbearing need for such prior "understanding" by speaking of certain processes of musical creation to belong within the composer's workshop, it's surely good enough for the rest of us to accept that there might be an odds-on chance that he knew what he was talking about!

[MrGongGong]

I'm not sure how that differs, though, from any other enthusiasm. People who are really keen want to learn more, want to understand, want to delve deeper. People who have less of an involvement don't. And in one sense people who are knowledgeable are more intense and "in a different place" from those who don't. Fans can be hugely knowledgeable about football or cricket too. Those who just go to an occasional match on a fine day can't keep up with pub conversation.

Indeed
I suppose what I mean is that some (NOT ALL!!) people who are passionate about "Classical" music treat it as something you "grow into" or that somehow it is more sophisticated than other musics. What also happens is that people assume that it is unfamiliar which simply isn't true on a sonic level, anyone who has been to the cinema in the last 50 years will be very familiar with the sound of Mahler's orchestra (for example)
this is equally true of other musics ..........

"Classical" music needs to ditch the word "Classical" (sadly) ........ a while ago I was running a composition workshop with musicians from one of the London orchestras, I asked them what was the first word that came into their minds when I said the phase "Classical Music" ..... and to be really honest about it
the overwhelming response was that the word was "Boring"
nothing to do with what it sounds like or anything
BUT when the bell rings dogs salivate when the word "Classical" appears the B word comes to mind

I love many pieces of "Classical Music" but this "Battle" is lost , we need to get over it and find other ways of describing what we listen to and play

[ahinton]

The people on this board , whose knowledge and skill is often at a pretty rarified level, seem keen to share....

Such rarefaction or otherwise, the whole point of music (at least to yer 'umble servant 'ere) is to give of what you do as a composer, performer or whatever else - sharing, indeed; composers don't just write for themselves (and they'd be quite unspeakably insufferable if they did!).

[Suffolkcoastal]

Classical music never had any exclusive impression to me as a child. My background is working class, as a young boy I was encouraged to respond to whatever was around in the charts in the early 1970's as I did for a while, I also had my Scottish father's interest in Scottish folk and dance band music and my mums fairly eclectic tastes. The first classical piece I came across was when I was about 7 when my Uncle played me Rossini's Thieving Magpie and William Tell overtures. It was the opening of the former that excited me. Gradually classical music drew me in until be the time I was in my early teens I really wasn't interested in any other genre of music. My listening experiences were by buying some LP's with my pocket money, borrowing from the local record library, by listening to R3 and some of my Grandfather's records and by talking to people about it. Many of these encouraged and broadened my musical tastes. A member of the local Astronomy Society I joined in my mid-teens for example, introduced me to Vaughan Williams who within a few months was to become my favourite composer of all and remains so. At no time did I ever think I was part of any exclusive club even when going to concerts, as I mixed with people from all walks of life. I will acknowledge that there is a degree of snobbery in some areas, and I've encountered some nasty incidences, though these are more to do with class and not having been educated at 'approved' institutions. But I strongly suspect that that isn't purely confined to music and you will find it in art, literature, history etc, though as I pointed out in my earlier posting, these subject areas are never 'attacked' as regularly as classical music and its seems perfectly acceptable to like these without being considered elitist.

[ahinton]

"Classical" music needs to ditch the word "Classical" (sadly) ........ a while ago I was running a composition workshop with musicians from one of the London orchestras, I asked them what was the first word that came into their minds when I said the phase "Classical Music" ..... and to be really honest about it
the overwhelming response was that the word was "Boring"
nothing to do with what it sounds like or anything

But whom or what do you consider to be responsible for bringing about or encouraging such a response?

[MrGongGong]

But whom or what do you consider to be responsible for bringing about or encouraging such a response?

If one looks at the images (and we have been a visually driven society for many years) of "Classical" musicians they say "Boring" , people in formal clothes which are regarded as what old dull people wear. Which is NOT to say that we should dress people up in silver suits,unless, of course, they are playing Ondes in Turangalila.....

[ahinton]

If one looks at the images (and we have been a visually driven society for many years) of "Classical" musicians they say "Boring" , people in formal clothes which are regarded as what old dull people wear. Which is NOT to say that we should dress people up in silver suits,unless, of course, they are playing Ondes in Turangalila.....

...or even the piano in ditto or in Prometheus, peut-être?(!)...

I think that the part of the issue upon which you rightly touch here actually centres less on the fact, however undeniable, that "we have been a visually driven society for many years" than on the fact that "we have been a gullible and impressionable society for many years" and have indeed become so much more so in recent times as to have encountered the widesperead blurring of the perceptions that can take due account of the visual as distinct from the aural; furthermore, one can look at even a complex painting by JMW Turner or John Martin for 10 minutes and "get" quite a lot (I don't of course, say "all") of and from it whereas one has to persevere with Shostakovich 4, Das Buch mit Sieben Siegeln, Bruckner 8, Sorabji's Piano Sonata No. 4 et al for as long as a performance of any one of them take before all has been revealed for the first time and this fact might also have some bearing, however unwelcome, on the concentration requirement problem which might as easily be as much of a perceived discouragement for some people as the fact that orchestral musicians perform in monkey suits - a fact which is in any case hardly evident from listening to music on the radio, the internet or CD.

[Demetrius]

Did teenagers in the 50s/60s/70s usually get excited over classical music in comparison to the 'popular' music of that time? I rather expect that many would have called it boring. Yet a fair share of the concert audience seems to be made of that generation. The musical interest of my friends (now in their mid-twenties) has started to diversify away from the pop/hip-hop/R'N'B/punkrock music of their teenage years. Some went on to jazz, some to classical, one just started a minor career as a singer of kitsch ballads (Schlager) . I doubt that the answer to the problems of classical music is to change it into something appealing to the average 15-year old. Better to give the 25 year olds who want to get away from the Justin-Bieber-fare ways to explore classical music. Dressing the orchestra into jeans won't do that. Cheaper tickets accompanied with good marketing might.

Had to google around for Mingus symphonies; still don't get it. It's jazz, and jazz is great music in it self. But every time I stumble upon a Jazz piece played by a classical band/ sung by classical singers I hear complains about that being unconvincing, that actual jazz musicians are infinitely preferable for performances of their music. Would it really enhance the chances of either jazz or classical music if classical orchestras take their woodwinds and brass, scrap some guitarists and sax players together and put on a Mingus concert? Aren't actuall jazz big bands better equiped for that?

I don't see why the repertoir should be changed, at least not to include more music 'suitable' to interest young people. There is no telling what kind of piece may start someone into liking classical music. Personally, after some exposure to it as a child and a relapse to more standard fare during my teenage years, I had my deceicive encounter with classical music with an unlikely piece. Out of pure frustration with life itself I decided to attend an opera, in that case, Bellini's version of Romeo and Juliett. It was a modern performance (I was used to them through theatre, and disliked them), it was in Italian (nothing against it, I just wasn't sure I would like an opera without understanding a word that is sung), and when Romeo turned out to be a somewhat starved looking lanky girl with huge glasses and a pony-tail I had a sudden urge to run away. By all means I should have hated the piece; I didn't. It was magnificent.

[french frank]

Did teenagers in the 50s/60s/70s usually get excited over classical music in comparison to the 'popular' music of that time? I rather expect that many would have called it boring. Yet a fair share of the concert audience seems to be made of that generation.

That's true. There wasn't the sheer quantity, the bombardment of popular music, the ubiquity that there is now (nor, it must be said, the variety "to suit all tastes"). Actually, I don't remember any negative connotations attached to classical music itself though, and less of the pressure to conform with your peers.

It needs genius of a marketing person to crack those two features. I only remember the unfamiliarity of concert-going as being exciting and stimulating. But because the classical stuff wasn't presented on a plate, I recall that I did need an introduction to concert-going and record-buying by friends ahead of me . That's what many younger people may not have.

[gradus]

I don't get the 'elitist' tag attached to classical music, but it seems others do, so why not let them try out their ideas. I don't believe that classical music will die as a result and it might gain audience. Unfortunately change can bring discomfort to those content with the status quo but if the status quo is unavailable for much longer, what choice is there but to grin and bear it, you never know something better could emerge.
Recently Mr GG posted about the emotional response he observed in a group of his pupils listening/discussing/interacting with a Haydn quartet- sorry to be hazy on detail - it would be interesting to know what brought this ( I took to be ) unexpected response from them?

[Flosshilde]

"Classical" music needs to ditch the word "Classical" (sadly) ........ a while ago I was running a composition workshop with musicians from one of the London orchestras, I asked them what was the first word that came into their minds when I said the phase "Classical Music" ..... and to be really honest about it
the overwhelming response was that the word was "Boring"
nothing to do with what it sounds like or anything
BUT when the bell rings dogs salivate when the word "Classical" appears the B word comes to mind

I love many pieces of "Classical Music" but this "Battle" is lost , we need to get over it and find other ways of describing what we listen to and play

What would you suggest as an alternative? Unfortunately pop/'popular' music has taken over use of 'music' on its own. 'Art music' sounds even more boring than 'classical' (even though it might be more accurate). 'Serious music'? - except that some of it isn't & it makes it sound like hard work (some is, some isn't).

[MrGongGong]

What would you suggest as an alternative? Unfortunately pop/'popular' music has taken over use of 'music' on its own. 'Art music' sounds even more boring than 'classical' (even though it might be more accurate). 'Serious music'? - except that some of it isn't & it makes it sound like hard work (some is, some isn't).

Music
Orchestral Music (which strangely doesn't have the unfortunate associations thanks to John Williams ) etc etc
save us from "Serious" music

It's interesting that this organisation

http://www.lccm.org.uk/

has absolutely nothing to do with Reich, Electroacoustics, Jonathan Harvey, H&N , HCMF etc etc etc

[salymap]

I have a feeling that we thought/talked about SERIOUS and POPULAR in the 50s, rather thn 'Classical'. Or perhaps 'Light' for the latter category.

Anyway it nver seemed 'scary' to us and I soon made many friends of my age who were at the various Colleges,
so nothing to be afraid of at all.

There are always 75% of people who don't bother with music, butthat leaves a lot of people who do care about it.

[french frank]

What would you suggest as an alternative?

When the Third Programme started they just called it "good music"

Don't shoot the messenger ...