Now I've seen it all

[MrGongGong]

When the Third Programme started they just called it "good music"

Don't shoot the messenger ...

I'm not going to
but some of it is shite
(IMV of course )

[french frank]

It's interesting that this organisation

http://www.lccm.org.uk/

has absolutely nothing to do with Reich, Electroacoustics, Jonathan Harvey, H&N , HCMF etc etc etc

Under Courses it says: "The extensive repertoire covers all forms of popular music including Jazz and original writing"

[JFLL]

"Classical" music needs to ditch the word "Classical" (sadly) ........ a while ago I was running a composition workshop with musicians from one of the London orchestras, I asked them what was the first word that came into their minds when I said the phase "Classical Music" ..... and to be really honest about it
the overwhelming response was that the word was "Boring"
nothing to do with what it sounds like or anything
BUT when the bell rings dogs salivate when the word "Classical" appears the B word comes to mind

I love many pieces of "Classical Music" but this "Battle" is lost , we need to get over it and find other ways of describing what we listen to and play

I'm a bit surprised at that, because, whatever the musicians felt, I doubt whether it’s just the word ‘classical’ that has connotations of boredom to most people, particularly young people. It’s the thing itself – the music of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven et al., incredible as that seems to us. It’s old, not contemporary, ‘irrelevant’, written mainly by dead white males. The whole Zeitgeist is against it, in other words. I don’t think young people would be fooled by some sleight-of-hand like calling it something more cool, because you can’t get more uncool than liking something old, whatever it’s called. In the past I don’t think there was nearly the same animus against old things, which may have started in the 50s (remember 'Roll Over Beethoven'?) Likewise with dress. Most chamber musicians, for example, now sport anything but formal dress (I've an idea the Lindsays led the way), but I doubt whether more relaxed dress brings in more young people.

[MrGongGong]

I'm a bit surprised at that, because, whatever the musicians felt, I doubt whether it’s just the word ‘classical’ that has connotations of boredom to most people, particularly young people. It’s the thing itself – the music of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven et al.,

My experience is exactly the opposite
it's like the responses at CE
Nothing to do with the SOUND of the music , the thing itself as you put it
it's just just what you say when someone says
"what do you think of classical music"

[doversoul1]

Originally Posted by MrGongGong
"Classical" music needs to ditch the word "Classical" (sadly) ........ a while ago I was running a composition workshop with musicians from one of the London orchestras, I asked them what was the first word that came into their minds when I said the phase "Classical Music" ..... and to be really honest about it
the overwhelming response was that the word was "Boring"
nothing to do with what it sounds like or anything

It only tells you that the people on the course knew, obviously knowing where you (musically) came from, how best to answer in order to avoid yet another lecture about sonic and semiotics and what’s the other one… acoustic? Or, it may just be possible that they meant your question was that.

"Classical Music" often does itself no favours at all by creating impressions that somehow it's a secret club or that one needs to "understand" it.

This is the view usually created or held by those who don’t listen to classical music. There is not much ‘classical music’ can do if those who don’t like it believe that it’s the fault of ‘classical music’.

I am well aware of your commitment to ‘wider’ music education, which is great. But can you not try disseminating your idea about music without always making some unfavourable comments about ‘classical music’? Can’t it (your idea of music) stand on its own?

Incidentally, I don’t think you can say that people experience classical music by hearing a piece of Mahler as the soundtrack of a film or as a ringtone. You don’t ‘experience’ a great work of art by seeing greeting cards and printed T-shirts.

[MrGongGong]

It only tells you that the people on the course knew, obviously knowing where you (musically) came from, how best to answer in order to avoid yet another lecture about sonic and semiotics and what’s the other one… acoustic? Or, it may just be possible that they meant your question was that.

No , sorry matey you are simply wrong about this
you really don't know where I'm "coming from" do you
music is a SONIC art , what's the problem with that ?

This is the view usually created or held by those who don’t listen to classical music. .

This really is nonsense

[doversoul1]

music is a SONIC art , what's the problem with that ?

This does (tell where you come from).

[MrGongGong]

This does (tell where you come from).

Yes it probably does
i'm a musician
I write and direct music
and other things

The point is that the names we give things and their associations don't necessarily have a direct connection to what they really are
people SAY that "classical" music is "boring" but that's got little to do with what it SOUNDS like
that , to me, is curious and interesting and worth exploring in some depth

[Mary Chambers]

I have a feeling that we thought/talked about SERIOUS and POPULAR in the 50s, rather thn 'Classical'. Or perhaps 'Light' for the latter category.

We just called what is now called classical music 'music'. (I still do.) Music meant 'classical' music. Other types were light music, rock and roll and possibly pop, though I'm not sure when that term began to be used. It is only fairly recently that Amazon has changed its categories from Music and Popular Music to Music and Classical Music. The word 'music' that used to mean classical now means popular!

[MrGongGong]

The word 'music' that used to mean classical now means popular!

and the word "song" means "music"
which I hate but some things are not worth fighting

[Beef Oven]

........ a while ago I was running a composition workshop with musicians from one of the London orchestras, I asked them what was the first word that came into their minds when I said the phase "Classical Music" ..... and to be really honest about it
the overwhelming response was that the word was "Boring"
nothing to do with what it sounds like or anything
BUT when the bell rings dogs salivate when the word "Classical" appears the B word comes to mind

You asked the question, and got an answer. Then what? Did you work it through with them, or collude?

.

[MrGongGong]

You asked the question, and got an answer. Then what? Did you work it through with them, or collude?

.

We talked about how language can enthuse or alienate
my own experience is that if you use language that initially alienates people you are on to a looser
if you get people passionate about how music sounds they then become surprised that it is something that they would normally dismiss without having experience of hearing
I don't need to "sell" classical music to professional orchestral players , they know more about it than I do

as i'm sure you know
once you realise that Rammstein and Schubert have fundamental similarities then it becomes so much clearer

[Beef Oven]

We talked about how language can enthuse or alienate
my own experience is that if you use language that initially alienates people you are on to a looser
if you get people passionate about how music sounds they then become surprised that it is something that they would normally dismiss without having experience of hearing
I don't need to "sell" classical music to professional orchestral players , they know more about it than I do

Hmmm. Some big challenges. Orchestral players who find classical boring, and everyone else hates Metal Machine Music. Maybe we can meet half-way with ReoSpeedForeigner?

[JFLL]

My experience is exactly the opposite
it's like the responses at CE
Nothing to do with the SOUND of the music , the thing itself as you put it
it's just just what you say when someone says
"what do you think of classical music"

No, it’s not the sound, it’s the concept (not the word) that seems to put many people off, before they ever get to concentrating on the sound – the notion that it’s old, outdated etc. I’m surprised that the first word that came into the heads of orchestral musicians on a composition course, when you said ‘classical music’, was ‘boring’. What exactly did they mean – ‘I think classical music is boring’, ‘I think the term ‘classical music’ is boring’, ‘I think classical music is boring when compared with contemporary music’, ‘Most people think classical music is boring’ etc.? I hope I’m not caricaturing your question to them, but I’m not sure that holding up a term and eliciting a Pavlovian reaction is useful with human beings (as opposed to dogs).

[MrGongGong]

Hmmm. Some big challenges. Orchestral players who find classical boring, and everyone else hates Metal Machine Music. Maybe we can meet half-way with ReoSpeedForeigner?

NO NO NO Poodle Hair
they don't really find it "Boring"
but that's the word that people say
I don't even think that people mean what it means
(which is a whole area of linguistic theory that is worth exploring)