Writing A Symphony - How Do They Do It?

[ahinton]

Its hard to judge from what I have read exactly how much material there really is, but I am sure you know well enough.
No doubt there have been plenty of discussions about this work on boards over the years about this work...

I've not studied all of the material myself, but I can tell you that there's some 120+ plus pages with all sorts of jottings which obviously meant more to Elgar than they could possibly have done to anyone else at the time of writing, particularly in the light of his habits of "building" symphonic edifices by jigsaw-like procedures and having recourse to fragments of ideas in his sketch books that might date from many years earlier and which had often been penned without any clear idea of how he might work them, let alone for what particular work they might ultimately be destined.

[teamsaint]

I've not studied all of the material myself, but I can tell you that there's some 120+ plus pages with all sorts of jottings which obviously meant more to Elgar than they could possibly have done to anyone else at the time of writing, particularly in the light of his habits of "building" symphonic edifices by jigsaw-like procedures and having recourse to fragments of ideas in his sketch books that might date from many years earlier and which had often been penned without any clear idea of how he might work them, let alone for what particular work they might ultimately be destined.

I have read the quite extensive sleeve notes on the Andrew Davis recording, which are certainly an interesting insight, although I suppose they do tend tell us what Payne wants us to know .
These completed/finished/reconstructed works are interesting exercises for the listener.

[ahinton]

I have read the quite extensive sleeve notes on the Andrew Davis recording, which are certainly an interesting insight, although I suppose they do tend tell us what Payne wants us to know.

Aside from the fact that Payne's concern is far more for the effect that the symphony will have on people whether or not they've read those notes before listening to it for the first time, they could hardly really do otherwise, could they?! Unless one made an in-depth study of all of the material and of Payne's notes and thoughts as he worked his way first to and then beyond the sheer impossibly of the task, those notes could do little else, I think.

These completed/finished/reconstructed works are interesting exercises for the listener.

This particular one strikes this particular listener as something rather more than that, actually!...

[Roehre]

I have read the quite extensive sleeve notes on the Andrew Davis recording, which are certainly an interesting insight, although I suppose they do tend tell us what Payne wants us to know .
These completed/finished/reconstructed works are interesting exercises for the listener.

His book(let) on his work on the Elgar gives much more and in-dept information, as does the NMC-CD accompanying Andrew Davis' recording. Together the book and this CD are an invaluable source looking "behind the scene" of Elgar "3".
Interestingly a talk by Payne re Elgar 3 from 1995 released on a BBC Music magazine CD informs us that at that time he was convinced such a reconstruction based on the then known material was a near impossibillity.
The Elgar estate made it all possible.

[teamsaint]

[QUOTE=ahinton;254106]Aside from the fact that Payne's concern is far more for the effect that the symphony will have on people whether or not they've read those notes before listening to it for the first time, they could hardly really do otherwise, could they?! Unless one made an in-depth study of all of the material and of Payne's notes and thoughts as he worked his way first to and then beyond the sheer impossibly of the task, those notes could do little else, I think.


This particular one strikes this particular listener as something rather more than that, actually!...[/QUOTE

I certainly wasn't suggesting that this is ONLY an interesting exercise.
Re the notes, again, it's just an observation that we try to put things the way we want them understood. That is natural and reasonable.

[teamsaint]

His book(let) on his work on the Elgar gives much more and in-dept information, as does the NMC-CD accompanying Andrew Davis' recording. Together the book and this CD are an invaluable source looking "behind the scene" of Elgar "3".
Interestingly a talk by Payne re Elgar 3 from 1995 released on a BBC Music magazine CD informs us that at that time he was convinced such a reconstruction based on the then known material was a near impossibillity.
The Elgar estate made it all possible.

Thanks for the info.Sounds fascinating.I am tempted to buy this.

[ahinton]

His book(let) on his work on the Elgar gives much more and in-dept information, as does the NMC-CD accompanying Andrew Davis' recording. Together the book and this CD are an invaluable source looking "behind the scene" of Elgar "3".
Interestingly a talk by Payne re Elgar 3 from 1995 released on a BBC Music magazine CD informs us that at that time he was convinced such a reconstruction based on the then known material was a near impossibillity.
The Elgar estate made it all possible.

This is indeed all true (and I certainly recommend anyone interested in the subject to get both Payne's book and the NMC disc. I listened to that 1995 broadcast. What the Elgar Estate "made possible", however, was for Payne's work to be released; he'd already done most of it off his own bat before they gave permission for it to be recorded and broadcast, which they did on wise advice, not least from the excellent Colin Matthews (as well as prompting from Payne himself) that, as Elgar was soon to go out of copyright, anyone could try their hand at this without fear or favour; it's worth remembering that the Estate originally wanted Payne not to do this work and for it not to be released - so it's Payne alone that made it "possible" and the Estate merely (but mercifully) endorsed that he should continue with it.

[ahinton]

Thanks for the info.Sounds fascinating.I am tempted to buy this.

Then do! Well worth it, believe me!

[teamsaint]

Then do! Well worth it, believe me!

Will do. found a used copy for about a fiver....can't go wrong.

[ahinton]

Will do. found a used copy for about a fiver....can't go wrong.

Good! Happy reading! As we approach the 15th anniversary of the world première of that symphony, I still cannot help but speculate that something else was at work in its preparation besides mere scholarship, dedication, commitment, familiarity with Elgar's work and composerly skills; it will be interesting to see if these two items bring about a similar response in you...

[Serial_Apologist]

Good! Happy reading! As we approach the 15th anniversary of the world première of that symphony, I still cannot help but speculate that something else was at work in its preparation besides mere scholarship, dedication, commitment, familiarity with Elgar's work and composerly skills;

Interesting. I remember it being written - and I guess with AP's agreement - that Payne experienced considerable difficulties in his early days as a composer in marrying his equal love of English music of the turn of the 20th century with that of the Second Viennese School, not to mention the new music of the 1960s. In retrospect I shared those sympathies at the time - albeit as a mere listener enthusiastic for the discoveries that were coming thick and fast at the time, courtesy Radio 3 and the proms under Glock. Prior to embarking on Elgar/Payne 3, his music, to me, has greater kinship with a composer such as Nicholas Maw than what he has written since.

[Suffolkcoastal]

I remember playing through the sketches that were published in Reed's book and improvising various passages, Elgar is one composer I can improvise in the style of, and thinking what I would do with the ideas if I was Elgar. One thing I do strongly disagree with in the completion is the ending. Yes it is right to end quietly, but I'm almost certain that Elgar wanted both slow movement and finale to end in the same way, extremely novel and daring and hence his reluctance to talk about it and his uncertainty about the position of the slow movement (2nd or 3rd). There are hints in the descending passage from the 'Arthur' music how that was to be achieved. All speculation of course, as we will never know, unless we come across a completed 3rd Symphony by an Elgar in a parallel universe!!!

[Serial_Apologist]

I remember playing through the sketches that were published in Reed's book and improvising various passages, Elgar is one composer I can improvise in the style of, and thinking what I would do with the ideas if I was Elgar. One thing I do strongly disagree with in the completion is the ending. Yes it is right to end quietly, but I'm almost certain that Elgar wanted both slow movement and finale to end in the same way, extremely novel and daring and hence his reluctance to talk about it and his uncertainty about the position of the slow movement (2nd or 3rd). There are hints in the descending passage from the 'Arthur' music how that was to be achieved. All speculation of course, as we will never know, unless we come across a completed 3rd Symphony by an Elgar in a parallel universe!!!

Iirc it ends grandiosely - but someone can probably correct me. I have huge admiration for AP in daring, if one can so put it, to enter into the mindset of Elgar. My one doubt with the Payne construction comes midway through the slow movement. I remember during the 1995 talk Payne drawing attention to a point in that movement where the music provided modulates, ending the passage with a huge question mark never resolved in the sketches; yet Payne evidently chose to resolve this by a succeeding succession of modulations back into a safe key, if I'm not mistaken, (I'm going by aural memory!), re-entering the preceding discourse as though untroubled. I feel somehow let down at this solution, even at the same time as concluding that it would probably have proved an impossible task figuring out what Elgar might have had in mind.

[ahinton]

Iirc it ends grandiosely - but someone can probably correct me. I have huge admiration for AP in daring, if one can so put it, to enter into the mindset of Elgar. My one doubt with the Payne construction comes midway through the slow movement. I remember during the 1995 talk Payne drawing attention to a point in that movement where the music provided modulates, ending the passage with a huge question mark never resolved in the sketches; yet Payne evidently chose to resolve this by a succeeding succession of modulations back into a safe key, if I'm not mistaken, (I'm going by aural memory!), re-entering the preceding discourse as though untroubled. I feel somehow let down at this solution, even at the same time as concluding that it would probably have proved an impossible task figuring out what Elgar might have had in mind.

It doesn't end at all grandiosely! And the close of the slow movement (albeit not the passage about which you're writing here) does indeed end with a question mark, although the music seems to me to have become so enmeshed in its own disconsolacy by this time that it almost feels as though it's telling us that the question isn't even worth asking any more, let alone answering.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And didn't AP say somewhere that the concluding Tamtam stroke was a gateway, or a door opening between Elgar's sketches and the audience for whom he (AP) was completing the work in the 1990s and after?