Writing A Symphony - How Do They Do It?

[Thropplenoggin]

With structural symphonic composition, composers have various basic formal templates on which to hang their compositional ideas; from sonata form to rondo, passacaglia, song form, theme & variations etc. What marks out symphonic genius is what you do with the existing forms, what you add to or take away from structural templates and the ability to create new structures out of other structural forms. Then it also depends on how a composer works with his material. Composers such as Elgar and Copland composed in a mosaic fashion, writing small passages and eventually fitting them together in a jigsaw manner, others such as Williams Schuman composed straight through, developing their ideas as they went along.
When I compose I tend to follow Schuman, in that I have an initial idea and my mind gradually develops it and succeeding ideas, though I have some idea on the basic length and form of the work, I don't have any computer software and have to do it all in my head! With orchestration most of the learning can be done from studying the works of other composers and finding what works and what doesn't, but working regularly with or as part of an orchestra is invaluable, some instrumental effects have no doubt been picked up by composers from listening to players warming up, practising and improvising. Something in the brain seems to take over subconsciously and this is of course the mysterious bit. When I have composed for orchestra and heard my results, they are more often that not what I heard in my head, but thinking about it afterwards you wonder how you've managed to achieve it. The same with analysing your own compositions after completing them and finding all sorts of relationships you weren't aware that you've done. So yes there is certainly something that the brain is able to do on a subconscious level. For the record I've never been diagnosed with anything like asperges or autism, however I've done some of the online tests and my partner and work colleagues think I do show aspects of both so, perhaps there may be something in this!

Fascinating insights, SC. Have any been recorded or Prommed?

[Oldcrofter]

I find the whole composition process in earlier centuries quite bewildering. Many composers seem to have been constantly on the move, performing in cities and cathedrals etc all over Europe, lurching around in coaches, hanging onto multiple sheets of manuscript paper (most of which had to be lined beforehand) arranging concerts, trying to get paid, arranging for multiple orchestral copies to be made, talking to publishers, editing, letter-writing, having tempestuous affairs, being dragged out for the evening by friends to go to the local tavern, attempting to sober up the morning after, families and in several cases, lots of children, salons and music societies to attend, lessons to give, persuading impresarios and orchestras to play their music, severe illness and short lives in some cases - it's really quite bewildering how they managed any composition at all let alone producing multiple symphonies, masses of masses, choral works, string quartets, songs, overtures...

Exhausting just to think about it !

[teamsaint]

They wouldn't have had to worry about virus checkers, disc defragmentaion, slow internet, poor router connectivity etc. Maybe that accounts for their speed!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

"pre music software" it took longer, but on sheets of manuscript paper you have a better overview and I think you are more creative.

I do most of my orchestration using the 1995 version of Sibelius 7. But when I want subtlety, back I go to the paper with the telegraph wires.

[Thropplenoggin]

"pre music software" it took longer, but on sheets of manuscript paper you have a better overview and I think you are more creative.

I do most of my orchestration using the 1995 version of Sibelius 7. But when I want subtlety, back I go to the paper with the telegraph wires.

Thanks, EA, but that doesn't get us very far on the mental dexterity aspect of things. Any thoughts as a composer yourself?

[Suffolkcoastal]

Fascinating insights, SC. Have any been recorded or Prommed?

None of my pieces have ever been performed professionally and none are published (I've only had articles published). In fact I've only heard a few of my works in amateur performance. I tend to compose a piece then stick on the shelf with the rest. I'm not very good at getting my music 'out there'!

[MrGongGong]

I wrote a symphony last year
the ability to imagine a sound you can't hear isn't that extraordinary
certainly using a computer to produce the score was much easier than what I used to do before
but I always think about how Feldman said that he composed
"start at the top left and end at the bottom right"

composing something on a large scale (the piece I wrote last year was about 25 minutes ) requires an understanding of how one bit relates to another BUT isn't radically different to making several short pieces.........

My Symphony was a mixture of techniques
a movement as a single stretch of music
one as a series of short episodes
and another as another long slowly developing series of strands that come together

[Pabmusic]

...the ability to imagine a sound you can't hear isn't that extraordinary
certainly using a computer to produce the score was much easier than what I used to do before
but I always think about how Feldman said that he composed
"start at the top left and end at the bottom right"

composing something on a large scale (the piece I wrote last year was about 25 minutes ) requires an understanding of how one bit relates to another BUT isn't radically different to making several short pieces...

To me, music is as natural a language to use as English. Just as I don't usually have to think hard to construct a coherent sentence, I don't have to think hard to imagine music. In fact, it's easier than ever because I can easily hear the finished product (computers!) whereas in the past it was all handwritten, generally without use of a piano.

[MrGongGong]

To me, music is as natural a language to use as English. Just as I don't usually have to think hard to construct a coherent sentence, I don't have to think hard to imagine music. In fact, it's easier than ever because I can easily hear the finished product (computers!) whereas in the past it was all handwritten, generally without use of a piano.

I don't think that music is a "language" even though it has some of the same characteristics (dogs and tables etc ) but know what you mean.
Though when I write music for instruments as opposed to electroacoustic or things with live electronics I find that I am always dissatisfied with the computer playback and it can make the voicing of instruments harder to get right. Which is rather counter intuitive.

This book is interesting if you are interested in Sonic Phenomena such as the effect of imagining a sound you can't hear etc

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sonic-Experience-Guide-Everyday-Sounds/dp/077352942X

[Hornspieler]

Sometimes, I am inclined to wonder not "How do they do it?" but rather "Why did they do it?"

HS

[Pabmusic]

Sometimes, I am inclined to wonder not "How do they do it?" but rather "Why did they do it?"

HS

This has the feel of a new thread about it - pieces that make you wonder why the composer bothered.

[MrGongGong]

This has the feel of a new thread about it - pieces that make you wonder why the composer bothered.

I thought there was a thread about Elgar already ? (That's NOT meant to be serious the 1st Symphony is a work of genius IMV but.................)

[Pabmusic]

I thought there was a thread about Elgar already ? (That's NOT meant to be serious the 1st Symphony is a work of genius IMV but.................)

Little do you realise that Elgar, far-sighted that he was, wrote just to annoy you.

[MrGongGong]

Little do you realise that Elgar, far-sighted that he was, wrote just to annoy you.

If I was being cynical my answer to the "why" question would be

Student finance
MOT
Mortgage
Tax bill
etc etc

but the real reasons WHY people write music are much more interesting ...........

[Hornspieler]

This has the feel of a new thread about it - pieces that make you wonder why the composer bothered.

Such a thread could set an alltime record for the number of replies posted within the first 24 hours! (Unless, of course, the heavy demand caused the forum to lock up completely)

HS