Writing A Symphony - How Do They Do It?

[Guest]

Listening to Shostakovich 5 in the car today, I was struck again by something which has often perplexed me: how to go about writing a symphony pre-music software.

When they are writing a symphony, do they hear all those instrumental parts in their heads?

I can understand how, say, Mahler could compose symphonies having conducted so many for so long. There, I can see a path from one to the other. I could also understand a symphony being written in conjunction with an orchestra.

But as a purely mental exercise à la late-period Beethoven, it blows my mind how this was/is achieved.

If say, the deaf Beethoven were to read a Mahler or Shostakovich symphonic manuscripts, would he be able to 'hear' this new sound world, even if he'd never experienced it himself, purely through the notation?

Is it inevitable to assume that composers brains are somehow wired differently to cope with the sheer copiousness of a symphonic structure as a (sometimes) purely mental exercise?

[ahinton]

Listening to Shostakovich 5 in the car today, I was struck again by something which has often perplexed me: how to go about writing a symphony pre-music software.

When they are writing a symphony, do they hear all those instrumental parts in their heads?

I can understand how, say, Mahler could compose symphonies having conducted so many for so long. There, I can see a path from one to the other. I could also understand a symphony being written in conjunction with an orchestra.

But as a purely mental exercise à la late-period Beethoven, it blows my mind how this was/is achieved.

If say, the deaf Beethoven were to read a Mahler or Shostakovich symphonic manuscripts, would he be able to 'hear' this new sound world, even if he'd never experienced it himself, purely through the notation?

Is it inevitable to assume that composers brains are somehow wired differently to cope with the sheer copiousness of a symphonic structure as a (sometimes) purely mental exercise?

It's really very little different in principle to "hearing" words in one's head, except to the extent that developing that facility might take somewhat longer and require more practice. Had Beethoven had the opportunity to read a Mahler or Shostakovich ms. I'm sure that he'd have been able to "hear" the music in his head. Conductors (which Beethoven and Mahler were but Shostakovich wasn't) need to be able to do this as well as composers.

[Pabmusic]

...Is it inevitable to assume that composers brains are somehow wired differently to cope with the sheer copiousness of a symphonic structure as a (sometimes) purely mental exercise?

A very interesting post, which I cannot begin to answer fully. However, I do understand that creative music-making in largely a left-side function of the brain, whereas the appreciation of music is largely a right-side one. The left side controls logical thinking, puzzle-solving, functional language (spelling, reading, writing) and mathematics. It is dominant in most mathematicians, engineers, computer geeks, and composers. The right side is more creative (odd that, isn't it?), intuitive, emotional, and is dominant in most listeners and possibly in most performers. (This is very simplistic; the truth is that these functions are connected in complicated ways.)

So, if I've got it right, a successful composer probably does have a brain that's wired to give that success.

[Pabmusic]

It's really very little different in principle to "hearing" words in one's head, except to the extent that developing that facility might take somewhat longer and require more practice. Had Beethoven had the opportunity to read a Mahler or Shostakovich ms. I'm sure that he'd have been able to "hear" the music in his head. Conductors (which Beethoven and Mahler were but Shostakovich wasn't) need to be able to do this as well as composers.

Adrian Boult said that he would often begin a piece of music in his head, be interrupted (a telephone conversation, perhaps) and pick up the music at the point it would have reached - as if it had continued in the background during the interruption.

[amateur51]

A very interesting post, which I cannot begin to answer fully. However, I do understand that creative music-making in largely a left-side function of the brain, whereas the appreciation of music is largely a right-side one. The left side controls logical thinking, puzzle-solving, functional language (spelling, reading, writing) and mathematics. It is dominant in most mathematicians, engineers, computer geeks, and composers. The right side is more creative (odd that, isn't it?), intuitive, emotional, and is dominant in most listeners and possibly in most performers. (This is very simplistic; the truth is that these functions are connected in complicated ways.)

So, if I've got it right, a successful composer probably does have a brain that's wired to give that success.

A useful introduction, Pabs.

I understand that it is possible to 'develop' particular parts of the brain through application; for example, in taxi drivers who have learned 'the knowledge' there is an area of the brain that is significantly larger than in the rest of us mere mortals. It isn't clear to me though if this enlargement comes about as a result of the application through learning 'the knowledge' or if it is people with this area naturally enlarged who tend to become cab drivers through their facility in memorising streets, and landmarks.

It is surmised that people with advanced brain skills such as people known as autistic savants may have particular areas of their brain that are disproportinately developed.There are also theories that our brains are not as universally wired to the identical pattern as we would like to believe. Links between forms of autism and heightened creativity are being actively research, I understand.

[salymap]

This is probably a silly comment but when a symphony is played extremely fast I always feelthat the composer couldn't have thought the music through quite like that, therefore didn't intend it to be played so fast. It can lose something.

[ahinton]

A very interesting post, which I cannot begin to answer fully. However, I do understand that creative music-making in largely a left-side function of the brain, whereas the appreciation of music is largely a right-side one. The left side controls logical thinking, puzzle-solving, functional language (spelling, reading, writing) and mathematics. It is dominant in most mathematicians, engineers, computer geeks, and composers. The right side is more creative (odd that, isn't it?), intuitive, emotional, and is dominant in most listeners and possibly in most performers. (This is very simplistic; the truth is that these functions are connected in complicated ways.)

So, if I've got it right, a successful composer probably does have a brain that's wired to give that success.

Interesting as this is, it leaves one wondering how the composer of the past (and a few of the more recent ones) managed to perform as well as compose, examples such as Paganini, Alkan, Chopin, Liszt, Vieuxtemps, Bartók, Rachmaninov, Medtner, Busoni, Bacewicz, Prokofiev come to mind but Bach, Mozart and Beethoven were all performers too in an age where noe one really expected a composer not to be a performer; did their brains possess the equivalent to 20/20 vision?

[Pabmusic]

...There are also theories that our brains are not as universally wired to the identical pattern as we would like to believe. Links between forms of autism and heightened creativity are being actively research, I understand.

Absolutely so. People with Asperger's Syndrome (a form of autism) do, in a sense, have brains that are 'wired' differently. They often make good scientists (Newton, Faraday, Darwin, Einstein), mathematicians (Alan Turing), engineers (Henry Ford, Thomas Edison), computer wizards (Bill Gates, Steve Jobs) and composers (Mozart, Beethoven, Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss, Bartok etc, etc). It is speculated that all these had, or have, Asperger's because of their various known personality traits. Because autism involves different 'wiring', the condition cannot be 'cured' - but would you have wanted Mozart to have been 'cured'?

I have seen it written that most scientific and engineering advances have probably been down to people with Asperger's. It sounds a ridiculous exaggeration, but the more you read about Asperger's, the more it seems to make sense.

[Pabmusic]

Interesting as this is, it leaves one wondering how the composer of the past (and a few of the more recent ones) managed to perform as well as compose, examples such as Paganini, Alkan, Chopin, Liszt, Vieuxtemps, Bartók, Rachmaninov, Medtner, Busoni, Bacewicz, Prokofiev come to mind but Bach, Mozart and Beethoven were all performers too in an age where noe one really expected a composer not to be a performer; did their brains possess the equivalent to 20/20 vision?

I did include a caveat that the right/left split is actually very complicated - I'm certainly not qualified to talk very deeply about this. As Ams rightly says, parts of the brain develop differently with different skills, something that I guess would happen differently between a composer and a composer/performer.

[Thropplenoggin]

Interesting as this is, it leaves one wondering how the composer of the past (and a few of the more recent ones) managed to perform as well as compose, examples such as Paganini, Alkan, Chopin, Liszt, Vieuxtemps, Bartók, Rachmaninov, Medtner, Busoni, Bacewicz, Prokofiev come to mind but Bach, Mozart and Beethoven were all performers too in an age where noe one really expected a composer not to be a performer; did their brains possess the equivalent to 20/20 vision?

I have always wondered why more modern performers, especially virtuosos, don't go onto compose. The path now seems to be from virtuoso performer to conductor. More money in it, I suppose.

[teamsaint]

Various interesting strands here.
I think , regarding the actual writing of a symphony, there must be a similarity to novel writing, in that there must be practical, learned techniques to help change the idea into a a reality. I remember hearing Sandra Paul/Howard discussing writing. She admitted that she had to go away and actually study the practicality of converting her ideas into a novel. Technique is important.
Regarding music, I am always in awe of the sheer time and effort required to complete large scale works in the pre computer age.
Regarding left and right brained activity, this is a fascinating and controversial area. There have been attempts to discredit some of the research done on left/right brained thinking. Personally, I think it's a very interesting area, that deserves a lot more attention.
This is an interesting read.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Left-Dark-Graham-Gynn/dp/0955678404/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1359034110&sr=8-2

[Dave2002]

Regarding music, I am always in awe of the sheer time and effort required to complete large scale works in the pre computer age.

Are we discounting some of the greats such as Mozart and Beethoven here?

https://www.bigsiteofamazingfacts.co...e-don-giovanni There's at least some truth in that website.

[Suffolkcoastal]

With structural symphonic composition, composers have various basic formal templates on which to hang their compositional ideas; from sonata form to rondo, passacaglia, song form, theme & variations etc. What marks out symphonic genius is what you do with the existing forms, what you add to or take away from structural templates and the ability to create new structures out of other structural forms. Then it also depends on how a composer works with his material. Composers such as Elgar and Copland composed in a mosaic fashion, writing small passages and eventually fitting them together in a jigsaw manner, others such as Williams Schuman composed straight through, developing their ideas as they went along.
When I compose I tend to follow Schuman, in that I have an initial idea and my mind gradually develops it and succeeding ideas, though I have some idea on the basic length and form of the work, I don't have any computer software and have to do it all in my head! With orchestration most of the learning can be done from studying the works of other composers and finding what works and what doesn't, but working regularly with or as part of an orchestra is invaluable, some instrumental effects have no doubt been picked up by composers from listening to players warming up, practising and improvising. Something in the brain seems to take over subconsciously and this is of course the mysterious bit. When I have composed for orchestra and heard my results, they are more often that not what I heard in my head, but thinking about it afterwards you wonder how you've managed to achieve it. The same with analysing your own compositions after completing them and finding all sorts of relationships you weren't aware that you've done. So yes there is certainly something that the brain is able to do on a subconscious level. For the record I've never been diagnosed with anything like asperges or autism, however I've done some of the online tests and my partner and work colleagues think I do show aspects of both so, perhaps there may be something in this!

[teamsaint]

Are we discounting some of the greats such as Mozart and Beethoven here?

https://www.bigsiteofamazingfacts.co...e-don-giovanni There's at least some truth in that website.

or perhaps i should have said that I am astonished at their speed, given the (apparent) size of the task.

[Dave2002]

or perhaps i should have said that I am astonished at their speed, given the (apparent) size of the task.

They wouldn't have had to worry about virus checkers, disc defragmentaion, slow internet, poor router connectivity etc. Maybe that accounts for their speed!