Sibelius. Influence and popularity.

[teamsaint]

Just a talking point (hopefully!), prompted by the legendary recent BAL thread .
I am quite interested in the relationship between the popularity and influence of certain musicians and composers . Some composers ( EG Mendelssohn perhaps?) remain incredibly popular , whilst maybe not being thought to have been particularly influential on other composers or professionals.
It just occurs to me that Sibelius was astonishingly influential on other composers. We seem to hear his voice in so many other composers, and for example, we know that RVW held him in extremely high regard. Of course, Sibelius is also very popular with the musical public, but even more so amongst professional perhaps?

Just typing this out before a dash to work. I hope it makes some kind of sense, and provokes a little discussion. Its just posted out of amateur enthusiasm , and to see how others feel about this, or if there are interesting views on Sibelius, or anybody else for that matter.

(for those interested in pop/rock, I always felt that Magazine fell into the "influential rather than popular" camp .)

[Pabmusic]

Interesting. I'd say that Sibelius was certainly influential among those composers who were trying to produce a non-expressionist or non-'Germanic' style. In fact, you could say that the numerous ostinatos, usually on a pedal, foretell minimalist techniques. And of course, the harmonic technique of piling up harmonies almost (but not quite) into diatonic 'clusters' must have been very exciting to anyone tired of expressionism.

I conducted En Saga once, which is about 800 bars long. As many as 360 of those (I can't recall the exact figure) are over a tonic pedal in the bass - really boring for the basses and cellos, who complained about it!

Don't think that Mendelssohn was not influential, though. Most of the French Romantics were influenced by him (Delibes, Bizet, Massenet and Saint-Saens, for instance), together with Offenbach, the Strauss family, and Sullivan. And of course there was Elgar.

[Hornspieler]

For Sibedlius, I suppose that Berwald, Hugo Alfven and Nielsen come to mind immediately (Grieg? I don't think so) - but also some of the later British composers, such as Bax, John Ireland and Frank Bridge.

As far as Mendelssohn is concerned, there are very obvious similarities between his works and those of Sir Arthur Sullivan and also many other of the British 20th century composers of Light Music.

Interesting thread.

HS

[Pabmusic]

For Sibedlius, I suppose that Berwald, Hugo Alfven and Nielsen come to mind immediately (Grieg? I don't think so) - but also some of the later British composers, such as Bax, John Ireland and Frank Bridge...

And Moeran, too - so much Sibelius in the Gm Symphony.

[Serial_Apologist]

And Moeran, too - so much Sibelius in the Gm Symphony.

But I don't think Nielsen (a Beethovenian), Ireland or Bridge. Bax, certainly, as well of course as Moeran.

The more radical Sibelius has had longer-term impacts than anyone would have thought still possible in the 60s, when some were questioning even Schoenberg's radicalness. Maxwell Davies has firmly acknowledged the influence in the symphonies. Several Finnish composers of today are indebted to the style and spirit.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Maxwell Davies has firmly acknowledged the influence in the symphonies.

Beat me to it, S_A; and Birtwistle has also expressed admiration for Tapiola. A completely different living composer who acknowledges Sibelius as important to him is Arthur Butterworth, whose most recent Symphony (his Ninth) reworks the opening C D F# motif from Sibelius' Fourth.

None of these sound like Sibelius - it's not so much a case of "hearing his voice" in their work as following his highly individual ways of constructing large-scale Movements, with thematic material presented at different rates of momentum; some layers going many times faster than others playing at the same time. Birtwistle's magnificent Earth Dances is put together on remarkably similar lines - like looking from the window of a train: the distant landscape seems to move very slowly, the middle distances progressively faster, and the track next to the train whizzes dizzily past.

This is a quite different, more profound type of influence from that found in those composers who merely copied his pedal points and melodic types.

[salymap]

Malcolm Sargent,who was very much at home in Sibelius, once said that Symphonies 1 and 2, whilst great works
were not true Sibelius, being constructed in the classical form of 1st and 2nd subject, etc. while the later symphonies were [my words] like jig-saw pieces tbhat fitted together.Sadly, Ican't remember his exact simile but that was the gist of it.

[Serial_Apologist]

Malcolm Sargent,who was very much at home in Sibelius, once said that Symphonies 1 and 2, whilst great works
were not true Sibelius, being constructed in the classical form of 1st and 2nd subject, etc. while the later symphonies were [my words] like jig-saw pieces tbhat fitted together.Sadly, Ican't remember his exact simile but that was the gist of it.

We mustn't argue with Sir Malcolm; nevertheless, in the second's first movement we find harbingers of later practices - initial statements of partial melodies and motifs destined to eventuate as continuities.

[teamsaint]

Beat me to it, S_A; and Birtwistle has also expressed admiration for Tapiola. A completely different living composer who acknowledges Sibelius as important to him is Arthur Butterworth, whose most recent Symphony (his Ninth) reworks the opening C D F# motif from Sibelius' Fourth.

None of these sound like Sibelius - it's not so much a case of "hearing his voice" in their work as following his highly individual ways of constructing large-scale Movements, with thematic material presented at different rates of momentum; some layers going many times faster than others playing at the same time. Birtwistle's magnificent Earth Dances is put together on remarkably similar lines - like looking from the window of a train: the distant landscape seems to move very slowly, the middle distances progressively faster, and the track next to the train whizzes dizzily past.

This is a quite different, more profound type of influence from that found in those composers who merely copied his pedal points and melodic types.

I need to, and have been intending to, listen to this work properly. I'll have your comments in mind when I do,Ferney .Thanks.

[salymap]

We mustn't argue with Sir Malcolm; nevertheless, in the second's first movement we find harbingers of later practices - initial statements of partial melodies and motifs destined to eventuate as continuities.

I'll listen out for that Sir S/A Thanks.

[Bryn]

Another influenced by Sibelius, if immitation/borrowing counts, is Philip Glass. Just listen tp 'Floe', from 'Glassworks'.

[Beef Oven]

Beat me to it, S_A; and Birtwistle has also expressed admiration for Tapiola. A completely different living composer who acknowledges Sibelius as important to him is Arthur Butterworth, whose most recent Symphony (his Ninth) reworks the opening C D F# motif from Sibelius' Fourth.

None of these sound like Sibelius - it's not so much a case of "hearing his voice" in their work as following his highly individual ways of constructing large-scale Movements, with thematic material presented at different rates of momentum; some layers going many times faster than others playing at the same time. Birtwistle's magnificent Earth Dances is put together on remarkably similar lines - like looking from the window of a train: the distant landscape seems to move very slowly, the middle distances progressively faster, and the track next to the train whizzes dizzily past.

This is a quite different, more profound type of influence from that found in those composers who merely copied his pedal points and melodic types.

Earth Dances is the only HB composition I can stomach. Your description of it is marvellous

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Earth Dances is the only HB composition I can stomach. Your description of it is marvellous

Cheers, BeefO

OT, can I enthuse about this:

http://www.nmcrec.co.uk/recording/nights-black-bird

... you might find it digestable.

(Cheaper here, but the excerpts are shorter):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Birtwistle-Nights-Black-Shadow-Anubis/dp/B004W7GPLU/ref=pd_rhf_pe_p_img_1_H51T

[BBMmk2]

Reminds me about Schoenberg when Ferney mentioned HB admiring Sib's Tapiola, that reminds how AS admired Brahms.

[Nick Armstrong]

the relationship between the popularity and influence of certain musicians and composers

Really thought provoking question, ts

Random thoughts so far....

1. Who influenced Sibelius? Where did that unique mature style come from? I may be wrong and would gladly be corrected by more knowledgeable people, but it doesn't seem to be an elaboration or extension from earlier styles (although as discussed elsewhere, Tchaikovsky does pop up in the 1st and 2nd Symphs and perhaps other early works).

2. I find I tend not to lean towards an appreciation of the 'influencers' - the pioneers - in classical music. Liszt might be the main example of this - I can see the immense influence he had, esp. perhaps with his orchestral works, but I can't bear them... yet I love the works that came later and stemmed from that driving influence... I tend to love composers who took a style to its later, developed stages (Mahler and Rachmaninov spring to mind). But Sibelius does seem a case apart.

3. Another interesting offshoot from your talking point could be the interface between popularity and critical assessment of a composer's work. I was listening this morning to Rob C discussing Britten with his guest this week, ref. Ceremony of Carols specifically, and he made a comment to the effect that popularity can go hand-in-hand with critical suspicion. Again, not something (at least latterly) that has affected Sibelius's legacy.

I don't think I've met your question head on at all, but it's been a long day!