Sibelius. Influence and popularity.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Arvo Part's 3rd Symphony is what I would call a Sibelius-influenced work. And I find it grows on you, just like Sib's own symphonies.

[Serial_Apologist]

[COLOR="#0000FF"]Really thought provoking question, ts

Random thoughts so far....

1. Who influenced Sibelius? Where did that unique mature style come from? I may be wrong and would gladly be corrected by more knowledgeable people, but it doesn't seem to be an elaboration or extension from earlier styles (although as discussed elsewhere, Tchaikovsky does pop up in the 1st and 2nd Symphs and perhaps other early works).

It has been suggested that the building from initial motifs in "En Saga" and the symphonies especially from 3 onwards had its precedence in the first movements of Borodin 1 and 2, though I can't recall the source - will have to check. Also at some point Sibelius heard one of the Wagner operas ("Parsifal"), though Sibelius's orchestration was probably his most immediately remarkable characteristic, and effectively his own invention.

2. I find I tend not to lean towards an appreciation of the 'influencers' - the pioneers - in classical music. Liszt might be the main example of this - I can see the immense influence he had, esp. perhaps with his orchestral works, but I can't bear them... yet I love the works that came later and stemmed from that driving influence... I tend to love composers who took a style to its later, developed stages (Mahler and Rachmaninov spring to mind). But Sibelius does seem a case apart.

Very much with you there, Cali.

[Barbirollians]

It has been suggested that the building from initial motifs in "En Saga" and the symphonies especially from 3 onwards had its precedence in the first movements of Borodin 1 and 2, though I can't recall the source - will have to check. Also at some point Sibelius heard one of the Wagner operas ("Parsifal"), though Sibelius's orchestration was probably his most immediately remarkable characteristic, and effectively his own invention.





Very much with you there, Cali.

Liszt's symphonic poems are greatly underrated - well that is how I feel whenever I listen to the Haitink recordings.

[Serial_Apologist]

Liszt's symphonic poems are greatly underrated - well that is how I feel whenever I listen to the Haitink recordings.

Liszt's harmonic, pianistic and orchestral sense timbres-wise was highly original for its time, and fed through to many later composers who - and I am in agreement in this instance with Caliban - made more creative use of Liszt's possibilities. The names are legion: Franck, Faure, Saint-Saens, Balakirev, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Medtner, Scriabin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Busoni, Ravel, Bartok, Kodaly, Albeniz all profited in differing ways.

[JoeG]

a really fascinating thread and thanks to all who have contributed so far. Sibelius and RVW are the composers I admire most (along with Beethoven and Shostakovich) and I feel they have a great affinity. I'm particularly interested in the idea that Sibelius influenced the minimalists and that makes a lot of sense to me. I wonder if he also influenced Mike Oldfield who got me into minimalist music in the first place - though his music is very English indeed. Sorry if this is a bit rambling - just got back from the folk club :-)

[Pabmusic]

It has been suggested that the building from initial motifs in "En Saga" and the symphonies especially from 3 onwards had its precedence in the first movements of Borodin 1 and 2, though I can't recall the source - will have to check...

That sounds like Gerald Abraham. I wholeheartedly agree that Borodin's way with motifs was a great influence (also his quite extensive use of pedal point).

Sibelius was quite heavily influenced by Tchaikovsky - the first two symphonies at least. Also, I hear Sibelius in the symphonies of Berwald (the exquisite opening of the Singulière positively reeks of Sibelius) - though I don't known how much played they were, or whether the Finn ever encountered the Swede's music in his youth.

Liszt's harmonic, pianistic and orchestral sense timbres-wise was highly original for its time, and fed through to many later composers who - and I am in agreement in this instance with Caliban - made more creative use of Liszt's possibilities. The names are legion: Franck, Faure, Saint-Saens, Balakirev, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Medtner, Scriabin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Busoni, Ravel, Bartok, Kodaly, Albeniz all profited in differing ways.

Borodin was heavily influenced by Liszt (they knew each other anyway) which might provide a route to Sibelius.

[verismissimo]

A very direct follower of Sibelius was the New Zealander, Douglas Lilburn, who made the Land of the Long White Cloud sound uncannily Finlandian.

Lilburn rather mistook this for creating a national sound, ignoring eg NZ's Polynesian heritage, and dismissing previous composers, in particular Alfred Hill, who had tried to do this.

I must have another go at Lilburn...