Pieces Which Sound Like Other Pieces & Other Compositional Queries

[Guest]

Am I the only one who, when listening to Jurowoski's glorious account of Tchaikovsky' 6th, can hear a lot of Mahler in it? By which I mean, did Mahler use to conduct a lot of Tchaikovsky, and has anyone looked into the links between them in terms of orchestration, use of dynamics, leitmotif, etc.?

Is Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 6 the first to have a downbeat ending? (I don't know Bruckner, perhaps he got in there first.)

I was also struck by the similarity between Brahms 1 and Shostakovich 6 - a weird wobbly trill thing that's used repeatedly. Is Shostakovich quoting Brahms here, or is this just a piece of musical synchronicity?

[Serial_Apologist]

Hope you don't mind me piggybacking on your OP, Thropplenoggin, as I have often asked myself your very first question. Did Mahler have a liking for Tchaikovsky's music?

As to downbeat endings, I'm thinking Schubert's Unfinished, which could be described as resigned if not downbeat - but admitttedly I haven't heard Newbolt's (re?)construction of the finale.

On Brahms 1 (1870-something) and Shostakovitch 6 (1939), synchronicity would I think be a misapplied term.

[ahinton]

Am I the only one who, when listening to Jurowoski's glorious account of Tchaikovsky' 6th, can hear a lot of Mahler in it? By which I mean, did Mahler use to conduct a lot of Tchaikovsky, and has anyone looked into the links between them in terms of orchestration, use of dynamics, leitmotif, etc.?

Mahler certainly did conduct Tchaikovsky, though I do not know how much or how often; whether that experience taught him anything, consciously or otherwise, that affected any aspect of his composition I cannot say with certainty.

[Thropplenoggin]

On Brahms 1 (1870-something) and Shostakovitch 6 (1939), synchronicity would I think be a misapplied term.

I was using the term fairly loosely, not in a strictly Jungian sense, to express an acausal coincidence i.e. if Shostakovich had used the exact same trill motif without knowing Brahms 1. Do feel free not to trample over every post with pedantry and nit-picking

[Stephen Whitaker]

Interesting related discussion here

http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/forum/forum0261.html

[Thropplenoggin]

Interesting related discussion here

http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/...forum0261.html

A fascinating read. Many thanks, Stephen.

[Nick Armstrong]

A fascinating read. Many thanks, Stephen.

It is indeed

There's quite a lot of Tchaikovsky in early Sibelius too.

Returning to the general thrust of your heading, Throppers, I've been meaning to start a thread on the correspondances between Chopin and Debussy... One day...

[Serial_Apologist]

I was using the term fairly loosely, not in a strictly Jungian sense, to express an acausal coincidence i.e. if Shostakovich had used the exact same trill motif without knowing Brahms 1. Do feel free not to trample over every post with pedantry and nit-picking

Touche!

[Thropplenoggin]

Touche!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Is Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 6 the first to have a downbeat ending? (I don't know Bruckner, perhaps he got in there first.)

Bruckner's 9th post-dates the Pathetique - and doesn't really count as it wasn't planned to end with the Slow Movement.

Therer are some Sturm und Drang Haydn Symphonies that "downbeatedly" (the Farewell, for example) or in tragic mode (La Passione - but this is more furious than Tchaikovsky's). The conclusion of Beethoven's last Piano Sonata is a slow movement, but without the despair of the Pathetique.

So, really, as far as I know, Tchaikovsky was the first composer to decide to conclude a Symphony with a tragic, nihilistic slow movement.

[Boilk]

Bruckner's 9th post-dates the Pathetique - and doesn't really count as it wasn't planned to end with the Slow Movement.

The revised version of Bruckner's 8th has a downbeat 1st movt ending and was premiered in 1892, the year before the Pathetique. What chance Tchaikovsky was aware of it?

The conclusion of Beethoven's last Piano Sonata is a slow movement, but without the despair of the Pathetique.

The last movement of Beethoven's Op.109 piano sonata recapitulates with the slow, resignatory theme with which it began. Good chance Tchaikovsky knew of this, or played it.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Bruckner's 9th post-dates the Pathetique - and doesn't really count as it wasn't planned to end with the Slow Movement.

Quite, and the same applies to Schubert's Unfinished. we know Schubert began a scherzo.

[mercia]

this article attempts to compare Tchaikovsky 6 and Mahler 9

http://www.mahlerfest.org/mfXVIII/notes_musings.htm

and if you want to know what Mahler ever conducted it's probably listed here

http://www.myspace.com/gustav.mahler/blog/341789205

I notice it says Mahler's final meeting with Tchaikovsky was 7 September 1893

[ahinton]

Bruckner's 9th post-dates the Pathetique - and doesn't really count as it wasn't planned to end with the Slow Movement.

Indeed - and would you care to make that second statement again, only LOUDER?(!)...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Indeed - and would you care to make that second statement again, only LOUDER?(!)...

In another context, I'd be glad to; but I think Thropnog's OP was questioning (in the sense of "asking" rather than "casting doubt") the originality of the Pathetique's ending. As far as I know, unless there is a work by a composer who has fallen from the attention of posterity - say, a Russian who not only failed to get into "The Mighty Handful" but didn't even manage the Little Toe (and Suffy will know far better than I in this matter) - the credit for both the idea of the Slow Finale of a Symphony and its successful delivery is all Tchaikovsky's.