Barbirolli's Death

[richardfinegold]

Ah! Karajan was not a Guardian reader, I assume

He didn't have time for that August publication. He was to busy reading his 2 Nazi membership cards.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The primary cause of anxiety for Sir John in his last decade was a prolonged legal wrangle with his neighbour. This, more than anything else probably took the greatest toll on his health.

[Mr Pee]

He didn't have time for that August publication. He was to busy reading his 2 Nazi membership cards.

Not that old chestnut again....

[Nick Armstrong]

He didn't have time for that August publication. He was to busy reading his 2 Nazi membership cards.

That'll stir 'em up and bring 'em out, Richard!!!

EDIT: I spoke too late

[Mandryka]

How interesting that while Mandy seeks to trash Roy Jenkins' achievement of the abolition of the death penalty and the decriminalisation of male homosexuals, he (Mandy) misses out several other notable achievements , viz the ending of theatre censorship, liberalising of divorce law, suspension of birching and the legalisation of abortion.

What Mandy seems not to appreciate or remember is that public sector workers work with and for the public, a service which by his own testimony Mandy left in search of bigger bucks

Who said anything about 'bigger bucks'? The dimensions of the 'bucks' had very little to do with my decision.

As to your other points:

theatre censorship - this is another one of those things which seemed screamingly good in 1968 and so impossibly RIGHT that one must have scratched one's head and wondered why on earth it had taken so long. Yet the effects have by no means, I'd argue, been all to the good: when dramatists were not allowed to state things directly, they were often compelled to make their points with greater subtlety (cf: Harold Pinter's 'more explicit' version of The Homecoming, when it was revived in 1990). Abolition did lead to some good things, but also to much rubbish like Oh! Calcutta and the bilious 'school' of 'in-yer-face' (sic) theatre.

liberalisation of divorce laws - those who actually believe in marriage (and I make the kindly assumption that anyone who has been divorced did ONCE believe in marriage) contend that the 1969 ACT only made it easy for young couples to give up when faced with difficulties and not apply themselves to the serious business of making their marriages/relationships work. I'm sure it also helped a lot of people escape from a misery in which they had been embroiled for too long, but - like so much that this government did that gets applause from Guardianistas - it wasn't an unequivocally 'good' thing.

abortion reform - as a strong believer in abortion, I can't be objective about this;but you'd have to recognise that it was another very contentious piece of legislation, whatever you (or I) may personally think.

Rather a tough link to get back to John Barbirolli from this digression - but JB himself was divorced (Eveyln Rothwell was his second wife). I wonder what he thought of the Wilson government? I've tended to assume he was an Elgarian Tory.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Surely the OP specifically made it a political topic by discussing the conductor's death in relation to the political climate of that era? I think most people are aware this isn't an 'I Love Sir John Barbirolli' thread.

True, but this in in the Talking About Music, whereas politics, which isn't particularly relevant here, is better discussed in the various Platform 3 threads.

[Thropplenoggin]

True, but this in in the Talking About Music, whereas politics, which isn't particularly relevant here, is better discussed in the various Platform 3 threads.

Perhaps that would be better addressed to the OP, whose post was typically provocative.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Is the Karajan the best recording of the opera or is Kempe still the man for the job or what other recording would be recommended.

Either of Karajan's two recordings ('tho' Geraint Evans and Helen Donath in the later one, together with the better recorded sound tips the balance for me) or Kempe, Kubelik or Jochum (unless you don't think that Placido Domingo should sing Wagner, or believe that DF-D lacks the necessary "gravitas" for Sachs). Having said that, it's a damned bad production of Meistersinger that makes it a boring experience!

But I can imagine the lyricism and joy that Barbirolli would have brought out of the score.

[Mandryka]

Whilst we are on Meistersingers - let's go off topic . I have Kempe's highlights disc which I have enjoyed greatly but my only experience of Meistersingers in an opera house bored me to tears . Heavens it was long ( and it wasn't old goosestepping Goodall )

Is the Karajan the best recording of the opera or is Kempe still the man for the job or what other recording would be recommended.

I would direct you to Kubelik (1967 - a somewhat 'below the radar' radio production which has had limited releases on various labels). Stories abound that it was intended to be a prominent, well-publicised DG release, and the cast - Thomas Stewart, Sandor Konya, Gundula Janowitz, etc - would seem to lend credence to this; then - so the story goes - Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau blackmailed DG into suppressing it because he wanted to record Sachs and wasn't going to be pipped to the post (he did, of course, record Sachs a decade later but his performance is nowhere near as good as Stewart's - an interpretation that is full of authority and virility). It's about as near 'right' as this problematic opera ever gets.

Karajan is good - not sounding like his familiar Berlin self - and his cast is strong but Theo Adam lacks charisma as Sachs (Karajan wasn't that keen to have him but he was overruled - yep, you did read that right - by the East German authorities who wanted the cast led by an East German singer) and Geraint Evans is a caricature Beckmesser (Karajan is to blame for that casting: he offered Evans the part as early as 1962). Otherwise, it's great but those are fairly big 'excepts'.

Kempe is great but is in mono (which won't bother everyone) and his hard to find/expensive on CD (though it will cost you only one euro to download).

All the other sets have their virtues, but don't quite have the necessary 'lift' - I can speak for all of the major studio recordings, apart from Solti's 1976 first stab, which I've never heard, but which once won BAL. So - hunt for Kubelik, but settle for Karajan if you can't get first prize!

[Mandryka]

Either of Karajan's two recordings ('tho' Geraint Evans and Helen Donath in the later one, together with the better recorded sound tips the balance for me) or Kempe or Kubelik (unless you don't think that Placido Domingo should sing Wagner, or believe that DF-D lacks the necessary "gravitas" for Sachs). Having said that, it's a damned bad production of Meistersinger that makes it a boring experience!

But I can imagine the lyricism and joy that Barbirolli would have brought out of the score.

Actually, I think it's all too easy to make DMON boring - just as it's all too easy to create a risible production of Macbeth. Not that the work itself is boring - just that the huge demands that Wagner makes on his required forces, particularly singers, are even huger here than they usually are. Strange to think that his original intention was to create something that could be easily staged.....

[Mr Pee]

Actually, I think it's all too easy to make DMON boring - just as it's all too easy to create a risible production of Macbeth. Not that the work itself is boring - just that the huge demands that Wagner makes on his required forces, particularly singers, are even huger here than they usually are. .

Huger that Tristan? Or Gotterdammerung?

I've disagreed with most of the twaddle you've come out with on this thread, from the OP onwards, and I also disagree with this.

The only point with which I agree is the Pot/Kettle remark aimed at Am51.

[amateur51]

Huger that Tristan? Or Gotterdammerung?

I've disagreed with most of the twaddle you've come out with on this thread, from the OP onwards, and I also disagree with this.

The only point with which I agree is the Pot/Kettle remark aimed at Am51.

I'm thrilled to have brought Mandy and MrPee together as one mind ... between them

No more from me. I've heeded the sound of the tuk-tuk

[Mandryka]

Huger that Tristan? Or Gotterdammerung?

I've disagreed with most of the twaddle you've come out with on this thread, from the OP onwards, and I also disagree with this.

Given the level of sophistication of your usual posts, it may come as news to you that Meistersinger is not only Wagner's longest opera but also the one that demands the greatest subtlety of characterisation (you may wish to consult a dictionary to find out what 'subtlety' means).

Still, predictability (and you're always predictable) can be endearing - sometimes. Nice to see you living up to your avatar, as usual.

[french frank]

No more from me. I've heeded the sound of the tuk-tuk

"He is never mean or little in his disputes, never takes unfair advantage, never mistakes personalities or sharp sayings for arguments, or insinuates evil which he dare not say out. From a long-sighted prudence, he observes the maxim of the ancient sage, that we should ever conduct ourselves towards our enemy as if he were one day to be our friend. He has too much good sense to be affronted at insults, he is too well employed to remember injuries, and too indolent to bear malice. He is patient, forbearing, and resigned, on philosophical principles..."

[Nick Armstrong]

"He is never mean or little in his disputes, never takes unfair advantage, never mistakes personalities or sharp sayings for arguments, or insinuates evil which he dare not say out. From a long-sighted prudence, he observes the maxim of the ancient sage, that we should ever conduct ourselves towards our enemy as if he were one day to be our friend. He has too much good sense to be affronted at insults, he is too well employed to remember injuries, and too indolent to bear malice. He is patient, forbearing, and resigned, on philosophical principles..."

And lo she came....



... and there was light !