Barbirolli's Death

[Barbirollians]

i didn't know that - how typical of these two men, great musicians both (and neither of them averse to a Johnnie Walker Black Label double stiffener at the interval )

Michael Kennedy's biography of Barbirolli is a marvellous piece of work and was republished by the Barbirolli Society about 10 years ago - well worth getting.

[Mandryka]

He most certainly was, and with a visionary Home Secretary in Roy Jenkins, they achieved much of value, amongst other things the abolition of the death panalty and the first step on the road for legal recognition that gay people are, in fact normal human beings. Just have to wait for the pope to catch up, now!

This is to peddle the standard Guardian reader line on the 1964-70 government: the abolition of the death penalty was by no means, I would suggest, an unequivocally good thing, nor was it universally popular.

As to 'homosexual recognition'..well, yes, I'll grant you that. It might interest you to know, though, that Wilson himself was notably unenthusiastic about this legislation and had a lifelong personal distaste for 'gay' (not a term he would have embraced) people, despite the presence of two of them in his cabinets (my source for this is Joe Haines's recent-ish memoir).

Wilson's handling of the economy, though, was disastrous - and this is an opinion generally held not just by New Right idealogues but also by many shades of left-wing opinion. About the only people who dissent are Guardian readers who worked in the public services, who saw their pay packets bulge during this period.

[Mandryka]

One other thing - Barbirolli did not fail to make the Meistersingers recording because he died prematurely. It was slated for 1968/9 in Dresden and he turned it down in response to Kubelik's request for musicians not to work in countries that had supported or contributed to the suppression of the Prague Spring.

As things turned out, he couldn't have made it, anyway. I'm saddened to hear this, as I disagree with his decision - which almost (but not quite) puts him on the same level as those people who attempted to disrupt the Israeli national orchestra's Prom performance a few years back. The members of the Dresden Staatskapelle were not politicians: I'm sure many of its members hated what the Soviet Union was doing, but did not have the luxury of protest.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Michael Kennedy's biography of Barbirolli is a marvellous piece of work and was republished by the Barbirolli Society about 10 years ago - well worth getting.

It's a fascinating book, but there's always the feeling that it was Barbirolli himself who wrote it, having already chosen Michael Kennedy as his authorised biographer, leaving all the documentation needed for this purpose. Another one by Charles Reid might well be unauthorised, but it might by more balanced. Possibly.

[amateur51]

I don't think it's your (or anybody's) place to suggest that I'm wrong.

And I'm sure I have everything to learn about bitterness from a male spinster who resides in dingy Norf Larndon.

Post after post has demonstrated how wrong you are, Mandy - deal with those instead of the ad hominem attacks, please

[teamsaint]

Post after post has demonstrated how wrong you are, Mandy - deal with those instead of the ad hominem attacks, please

just for once I am " message board speechless" at the OPs various comments.

Is Mandy, for instance, not going to point out the "wrongness" of other peoples quotes from now on?

[amateur51]

This is to peddle the standard Guardian reader line on the 1964-70 government: the abolition of the death penalty was by no means, I would suggest, an unequivocally good thing, nor was it universally popular.

As to 'homosexual recognition'..well, yes, I'll grant you that. It might interest you to know, though, that Wilson himself was notably unenthusiastic about this legislation and had a lifelong personal distaste for 'gay' (not a term he would have embraced) people, despite the presence of two of them in his cabinets (my source for this is Joe Haines's recent-ish memoir).

Wilson's handling of the economy, though, was disastrous - and this is an opinion generally held not just by New Right idealogues but also by many shades of left-wing opinion. About the only people who dissent are Guardian readers who worked in the public services, who saw their pay packets bulge during this period.

How interesting that while Mandy seeks to trash Roy Jenkins' achievement of the abolition of the death penalty and the decriminalisation of male homosexuals, he (Mandy) misses out several other notable achievements , viz the ending of theatre censorship, liberalising of divorce law, suspension of birching and the legalisation of abortion.

What Mandy seems not to appreciate or remember is that public sector workers work with and for the public, a service which by his own testimony Mandy left in search of bigger bucks

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Please could we keep to topic and talk about Sir John Barbirolli.

[Thropplenoggin]

Please could we keep to topic and talk about Sir John Barbirolli.

Surely the OP specifically made it a political topic by discussing the conductor's death in relation to the political climate of that era? I think most people are aware this isn't an 'I Love Sir John Barbirolli' thread.

[french frank]

Please could we keep to topic and talk about Sir John Barbirolli.

I think it has now been demonstrated that Sir John's ill health and early death had been on the cards for some years before it occurred in 1970. And that the fact that the Meistersinger recording did not happen was primarily his own decision. Which just about wraps up the two major points in the OP.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Around 1960, the Free Trade Hall was fitted with a rostrum that allowed Sir John to conduct from a half-sitting position, but when his health improved it was removed.

[Barbirollians]

It's a fascinating book, but there's always the feeling that it was Barbirolli himself who wrote it, having already chosen Michael Kennedy as his authorised biographer, leaving all the documentation needed for this purpose. Another one by Charles Reid might well be unauthorised, but it might by more balanced. Possibly.

I don't think that is quite fair EA . Michael Kennedy was a close friend of Barbirolli and of RVW for that matter and that is made plain throughout the text but it is far from a hagiography .

Mandryka - he turned it down in 1968 . The original plan was for it to be made in 1969 so he could have made it but for his change of heart following the request made by Kubelik . Karajan of course took over .

[amateur51]

I don't think that is quite fair EA . Michael Kennedy was a close friend of Barbirolli and of RVW for that matter and that is made plain throughout the text but it is far from a hagiography .

Mandryka - he turned it down in 1968 . The original plan was for it to be made in 1969 so he could have made it but for his change of heart following the request made by Kubelik . Karajan of course took over .

Ah! Karajan was not a Guardian reader, I assume

[Mandryka]

Post after post has demonstrated how wrong you are, Mandy - deal with those instead of the ad hominem attacks, please

Pot calling kettle, pot calling kettle - come in please, kettle...

[Barbirollians]

Whilst we are on Meistersingers - let's go off topic . I have Kempe's highlights disc which I have enjoyed greatly but my only experience of Meistersingers in an opera house bored me to tears . Heavens it was long ( and it wasn't old goosestepping Goodall )

Is the Karajan the best recording of the opera or is Kempe still the man for the job or what other recording would be recommended.