Britten and Wagner Anniversaries: Nothing to Celebrate?

[Lateralthinking1]

Ahinton, Thank you for your considered comments which I appreciate. I accept a lot of your last contribution if not all. I said I wouldn't comment again in detail on Britten and will keep that promise. You are right about pseudo-academic assessments of music, gender, identity etc but I would just add that there are times when a composer intends to be overt. Reich's "Different Trains" was influenced by the separation of his parents which required him when young to make regular train journeys and his Jewishness which encouraged him to compare/contrast those journeys with the train journeys of victims of the Holocaust.

ams - Many thanks for the encouragement. It would be sad to miss the opportunity. I will listen to some more of his music.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

you had failed to explain why there should have been question after question about Britten and children

I'm not sure whether you meant this, but this is quite literally true: there are only two Questions (and even then, the second depends on the first):
1) Was Britten sexually/erotically attracted to children?
2) If so, was he a practising paedophile?

The answer to the first is clear from his letters and diaries. Yes, Britten found boys (up to the age of about 15) erotically stimulating.

There is no evidence (and God knows, many journalists have tried their damnedest to find some) that Britten's actual relationships with children was at all inappropriate. On the contrary, the testimony from everyone who as children had emotional contact with Britten (not just Hemmings, but Eric Smith, Michael Berkeley and several children of Britten's friends who, in spite of the rumours and insinuations about him, still trusted him to "baby-sit") is that he was kind, generous and responsible. Their only criticism of his behaviour (and it is far from an insignificant one) was that he lost interest in them when they reached puberty - there is considerable and understandable resentment of this, but still none of them have thought of "settling scores" by mentioning any (real or invented) sexual abuse. This is the state of evidence as it stands at the moment, but it probably it won't be the end of the matter - and perhaps shouldn't be: the more lack of evidence prurient journalists demonstrate, the better for Britten's standing as a human being - having such desires but refusing to abuse his standing as a public figure or his position as a family friend to realize them. Would that others currently in the headlines had had his decency and self-discipline.

when no such questions have ever arisen in connection with the many other homosexual composers who lived in that era.

I know that you don't intend this, but there has been in some posts on this Thread a whiff of an idea that I thought had disappeared years ago equating "homosexuality" with "paedophilia". It needs to be clarified that no such equation can be suggested with any validity;

However, he appears to have been emotionally cold towards them [="children"] as indeed he could be towards adults.

A suggestion contradicted by every child who knew him. He could be "cold" towards adults and adolescents, but equally he could be generous, warm, and considerate. He was a human being, in other words.

The last thing I would wish is that people should stop enjoying the music they love.

No chance, matey!

[ahinton]

Ahinton, Thank you for your considered comments which I appreciate. I accept a lot of your last contribution if not all. I said I wouldn't comment again on Britten and will keep to that position. I agree with your comments about pseudo-academic assessments of music, gender, identity etc but would just add that there are times when a composer intends to be overt. Steve Reich's "Different Trains" was influenced by the separation of his parents which required him when young to take train journeys between the two and his Jewishness which encouraged him to compare/contrast those journeys with the train journeys of the Holocaust.

Suggestion is one thing whereas overt and deliberate attempts to represent something in music are quite another; the example that you give clearly falls into the first category but, even though it does so, one would not expect every listener to appreciate what set those particular trains (sorry!) of thought off in Reich's head without having been told or read about it first.

[MrGongGong]

Suggestion is one thing whereas overt and deliberate attempts to represent something in music are quite another; the example that you give clearly falls into the first category but, even though it does so, one would not expect every listener to appreciate what set those particular trains (sorry!) of thought off in Reich's head without having been told or read about it first.

I think many people get very confused about this stuff, some of which is (IMV) to do with the idea that music is somehow a "language" and is "about" communication of defined things. It CAN be , but not necessarily so. Given the nature of Wagners works it would be a little ridiculous to suggest that they are simply ripping yarns with music !.

Many people who are highly accomplished musicians struggle with the idea of musicology.

[Mary Chambers]

Post #107 (too long to quote) by ferneyhoughgeliebte (a bit long to type) contains a great deal of good sense.

[Lateralthinking1]

the more lack of evidence prurient journalists demonstrate, the better for Britten's standing as a human being

Thank you for your detailed comments. The specific point you make about recent newspaper coverage is a very valid one in a free society. Gutter journalism will remain, even post Leveson, but most reputations will ultimately be based on factual information.

[amateur51]

I think that we have to accept that on several significant occasions (Grimes, Budd, Screw, Dream, Venice, even Albert Herring etc) Britten deliberately chose to set stories/ideas that clearly reflect his own situation and preoccupations. As to exactly why he did this we can only speculate - was he working something about himself out for himself, or inviting/requiring his audiences to do the same? Was he trying to create a body of work that would stand for these issues and create discussion? Or was he addressing important issues that other composers had neglected, on a mission as it were?

Whatever, given these 'clues' it is not surprising that some journalists have latched on to them and what they represent. Britten of course has the last laugh because one of his trade marks in his operas is that he deliberately leaves questions hanging in the air, with no apparent resolution.

Each generation will argue the toss and will come to its own conclusions, of course. I just hope that in the end each generation comes to acknowledge that Britten was a musical genius.

[amateur51]

Post #107 (too long to quote) by ferneyhoughgeliebte (a bit long to type) contains a great deal of good sense.

Seconded, Mary!

[ahinton]

Seconded, Mary!

Thirded!

[ahinton]

I think that we have to accept that on several significant occasions (Grimes, Budd, Screw, Dream, Venice, even Albert Herring etc) Britten deliberately chose to set stories/ideas that clearly reflect his own situation and preoccupations. As to exactly why he did this we can only speculate - was he working something about himself out for himself, or inviting/requiring his audiences to do the same? Was he trying to create a body of work that would stand for these issues and create discussion? Or was he addressing important issues that other composers had neglected, on a mission as it were?

Whatever, given these 'clues' it is not surprising that some journalists have latched on to them and what they represent. Britten of course has the last laugh because one of his trade marks in his operas is that he deliberately leaves questions hanging in the air, with no apparent resolution.

Each generation will argue the toss and will come to its own conclusions, of course. I just hope that in the end each generation comes to acknowledge that Britten was a musical genius.

Yes - people will argue the toss about Shos forever as well - and his case is a harder nut to crack than Britten's, arguably - but what matters to us and to succeeding generations is what his music does for us and gives to us. As I've mentioned before, I can get close to very little of Britten's music, try as I may (and I have and still will) but that does not blind me to the genius of which you speak.

[Mary Chambers]

As I've mentioned before, I can get close to very little of Britten's music, try as I may (and I have and still will) but that does not blind me to the genius of which you speak.

This is more or less how I react to Wagner.

[ahinton]

I think many people get very confused about this stuff, some of which is (IMV) to do with the idea that music is somehow a "language" and is "about" communication of defined things. It CAN be , but not necessarily so.

It may be fair to call it a language insofar as its purpose of that of communication; the confusion to which you refer is, as you suggest, that some people assume that any "language" must be able to define and to represent matgerial things; I'm reminded of whoever it was that first ruefully remarked about Richard Strauss that if he continued in the vein that he was at one time he'd soon be able to represent a fork or a spoon in music. Stravinsky did no one any favours with his "music is incapable of expressing anything beyond itself" (unless something fairly fundamental got lost in the translation); whoever it was that said instead that music can express everything but name nothing was far nearer the mark, I think.

Given the nature of Wagners works it would be a little ridiculous to suggest that they are simply ripping yarns with music !

Er - yes; it would be hard to argue with that!

Many people who are highly accomplished musicians struggle with the idea of musicology.

Indeed so; as someone once said about musicians, echoing the Shaw dictum, "those who can, perform and/or compose, those who can't, teach; those who can't do either become musicologists". What that says about a friend and colleague of mine who teaches musicologists I'd rather not contemplate...

[ahinton]

This is more or less how I react to Wagner.

Each to their own, I guess! But are there Wagner works that are a notable exception to this for you, as there are works by Britten for me (including the concertos, Frank Bridge Variations, Sinfonia da Requiem, Cello Symphony, War Requiem)?

[Mary Chambers]

Each to their own, I guess! But are there Wagner works that are a notable exception to this for you, as there are works by Britten for me (including the concertos, Frank Bridge Variations, Sinfonia da Requiem, Cello Symphony, War Requiem)?

Perhaps the Wesendonck Lieder and Siegfried Idyll.

[doversoul1]

MrGongGong
Many people who are highly accomplished musicians struggle with the idea of musicology

.

ahinton
Indeed so; as someone once said about musicians, echoing the Shaw dictum, "those who can, perform and/or compose, those who can't, teach; those who can't do either become musicologists". What that says about a friend and colleague of mine who teaches musicologists I'd rather not contemplate...

Without scholars or critics, many great works of music, literature or art may not have stayed with us. And without those many excellent reviewers whom we know, the enjoyment of music for a lot of us would definitely be much poorer. The ability to write and talk about works by others should not to be slighted.