Britten and Wagner Anniversaries: Nothing to Celebrate?

**MrGongGong** · 07-01-13, 21:41

Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post

Quite.

So it's impossible to know if Wagner's ant-semitism affected his music

or if it didn't.

I don't know that that is the case at all
as music is more than sonic experience (a great book)

Wagner's invented a word to describe what he did as he thought that "music" wasn't sufficient
so I would think that it probably was affected by his beliefs
but in what way is open to speculation , study and research

Cage said (? I think ...... or he was quoting someone else)
"one should never seek out personality as it cannot be avoided"

**ahinton** · 07-01-13, 21:46

Originally posted by doversoul View Post

So how much has that to do with the audience of your music? Should the audience know your personal life and ideas or the circumstance in which the music was made in order to appreciate your music?

A good question, even though ultimately unanswerable; what do we really know - and, for that matter, what do we really need to know - of Bach's day-to-day existence that we can actually attach in our minds to meaningful thoughts about the ways in which we ought best to listen to his music? The big problem here relates, I think, to those who listen to any music without having experienced at first hand and accordingly responded personally to any of the aspects of the particular cultural environment in which that music was composed; this is of particular importance to, say, 21st century English or Brazilian listeners taking in music from other lands and other eras, to the extent that anything that they might first read about those times and circumstances in which the composers worked can only go so far in imparting to them anything of lasting value and importance to their personal take on that music. As I've said in other contexts, we not only don't but can't listen to Bach as Bach's contemporaries listened to his work when it was newly composed and being performed for the first time, but that doesn't in any sense undermine either the intrinsic expressive power of Bach's music or its ability to speak meaningfully to non-Germans many generations after its was composed when it's being performed (or listened to in broadcasts or recordings) in circumstances quite different to any with which Bach would have been familiar.

**Eine Alpensinfonie** · 07-01-13, 21:51

If Tchaikovsky had been heterosexual, would his music have sounded more like Rimsky or Borodin? I doubt it. But we can never know.

**ahinton** · 07-01-13, 21:53

Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post

Cage said (? I think ...... or he was quoting someone else)
"one should never seek out personality as it cannot be avoided"

Cage (if indeed it actually was him in this instance) said lots of things, not least (in the light of the present context) that Varèse didn't treat sounds as sounds but treated them as Varèse, which "thought" long ago prompted me to wonder what on earth else Varèse was supposed to do with them; if that remark was intended by Cage as any kind of illustration of the notion that "one should never seek out personality as it cannot be avoided", then it did him few if any favours as far as I am concerned and could be argued to have backfired upon him...

**Flosshilde** · 07-01-13, 21:53

Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post

I don't know that that is the case at all
as music is more than sonic experience (a great book)

Wagner's invented a word to describe what he did as he thought that "music" wasn't sufficient

Do you mean gesamtkunstwerk? Not invented by Wagner, either as a word or as a concept, but something that he said he wanted his work to be - a synthesis of poetry, music, sculpture & painting, & acting; something that is commonplace in opera production now, but rare in the mid-19th century.

so I would think that it probably was affected by his beliefs
but in what way is open to speculation , study and research

You think it was, but I think it's impossible to know. I think that people who know of Wagner's political/social beliefs claim to be able to identify elements within his works that express them (the portrayal of Mime & Alberich in the Ring, for example), but I would suggest that without that knowledge such identification could not be made.

**ahinton** · 07-01-13, 21:57

Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post

If Tchaikovsky had been heterosexual, would his music have sounded more like Rimsky or Borodin? I doubt it. But we can never know.

That's just the point but, whilst we can indeed well argue that we'll "never know" about this in the cases of Tchaikovsky or Szymanowski, or Copland or any number of 20th century American composers (for instance), can we really "know" about this in terms of being able to provide credible, definitive and authoritative answers in respect of living composers of homosexual or indeed any other sexual persuasions? Of course not - just as we couldn't identify the work of any composer as being that of a female or male just by listening to it; as Thea Musgrave (who surely understand this as well as anyone) long ago pointed out, she's a woman and a composer but rarely both at the same time...

**MrGongGong** · 07-01-13, 21:59

This is worth reading (it's about electroacoustic music but has some interesting things about how people respond to music with different amounts of information and different types of information)

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http://aural-initiative.com/IRproject.pdf

**Lateralthinking1** · 07-01-13, 22:31

With respect, I think that a key moral point is being blurred in the above discussion. It is that there are several thousand oceans between gender and sexual orientation on the one hand and anti-semitism and child abuse on the other. That much applies irrespective of what any music has to say and irrespective of anything that might apply to any of the composers mentioned.

There is then the question of whether a composer's identity and/or behaviour are inextricably linked to the music. That wholly depends on the composer, the identity, the behaviour and the music. A socialist might not knowingly put any of her socialism into her music although some might say that her music clearly indicates that she spent several months at Greenham Common. A train spotter might be so enthusiastic about trains that every piece of music he writes is designed to sound like trains on a track.

None of the "music" by Gary Glitter is ever played on the radio. It would be front page news if it were to be and it would be the end of the BBC as we know it, even accounting for the general waywardness of R1 and R2. From memory the lyrics of his songs amounted to "rock n roll, oh oh, rock n roll". Bluesologists might remark that the term "rock n roll" has, in historical terms, sexual connotations. It also has a musical meaning and there is no indication of immorality or illegality. That implies nothing of Britten whatsoever but it says much about a broadcaster's required approach to any composer proven to be of the Glitter persuasion.

As for composers who place their identities in the music, all one has to ask is how much air time would be given to a modern opera in celebration of the life and outlook of Nick Griffin. I doubt very much that it would ever be permitted to see the light of day.

**Barbirollians** · 07-01-13, 22:36

I suspect that I shall be listening to a lot more Verdi than either Wagner or Britten .

**Mr Pee** · 07-01-13, 22:45

Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post

I suspect that I shall be listening to a lot more Verdi than either Wagner or Britten .

And I shall be listening to no Verdi whatsoever. I find his operas dreary in the extreme.

As for all the flim-flam about whether Britten was a homosexualist, or Wagner was an anti-Semite, and to whether that affected their compositions, what the heck does it matter?

Just listen to the music. That is what they would have wanted us to do.

**Beef Oven** · 07-01-13, 22:48